Transcript - Dr. Niz Safrudin

Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution is a special, limited podcast created specifically for "Retailing and Service Design," a unique course that is part of the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design in New York City. Each episode features in depth conversations with guest experts in omnichannel retailing, with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to the short and long-term challenges and implications of COVID-19 and potential opportunities to rethink retail's future. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy, both are Assistant Professors in the School of Fashion at Parsons.

Christopher Lacy: Welcome to Retail Revolution, where we discuss all things pertaining to retailing and service design. Today, we are going to discuss the power of innovation and leveraging data for success. And here with us is design engagement lead at SAP, Dr. Niz Safrudin.  Hello, Dr. Safrudin, how are you? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Hi Chris, very well. Thanks very much for the invite, it's an honor. 

Christopher Lacy: Thank you. I'm glad you were able to make time to chat with us. Cause it is definitely a crazy time right now for all of us. Yeah, so before we get into to that and where we see ourselves going after this pandemic. Could you tell our listeners about you? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Right. Gladly. So, as you've mentioned, I am a customer design engagement lead at SAP AppHaus. So like app as in application house, like Bauhaus. So yeah, mark those two together, you get that house. So for those who don't know SAP it's a multinational, enterprise company that's headquartered in Germany. It's a German software company. And paint a bit of a, you know, the scale of our business, essentially 77 % of the worlds transaction touches an SAP system across 25 different industries. So, you know, we provide enterprise solutions across. There are lights on business and processes like finance, HR, customer experience, manufacturing, supply chain, the whole shebang.

So, it's when I say it's a larger organization, we're talking about a hundred thousand employees. So, I'm in this team called AppHaus and you can see AppHaus as a, like a creative consultancy within SAP. So, we take a human sensor approach to innovation. Really focusing on the end user. So, to make sure that the solution actually gets adopted by our customers. What I do mainly is I lead and manage customer engagements. So, on get into an innovation journey I'm using cutting edge technologies, like a machine learning, artificial intelligence, blockchain called platform, you know, all that good stuff. 

Christopher Lacy: Oh, that's exciting. So, I want to come and hang out with you one day.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: You're welcome anytime.

Christopher Lacy: Well, you know what you're doing, what your team is doing. It is what every single retailer is probably thinking about when they wake up in the morning and go in and when they go to bed and because you're thinking about what is next for them, you know, I'd love to hear from you. When you look at retail and customer engagement, what are the biggest shifts that you've seen in the last five years?

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Hmm. Yeah, a lot. I would say that the, you know, I like to think in dimension, so let's start, I would say that there were at least, four areas where you could see this shift. Right? So, in terms of the people, the product and the offering, processes and the place. So, let's start with the people first. Perhaps for me, what's most striking is that, you know, as millennials and gen Z or especially the gen Z are coming through the workforce, there's, they're influencing. You know, the market span and consumer demand, which impacts the, you know, the proc and a service offering. So, you starting to see this awakened generation where they're starting to shift towards more conscious consumerism.  You know, asking for pressing topics like sustainability, inclusivity and rightfully so, you know, because as it stands today, if the industry doesn't change his practices, I mean, you know, it's estimated they'll create like 148 million or some number around those number of tons of waste by 2030. 

And that's exactly why we have this, you know, United Nations, sustainable development goals, which SAP is working towards with our customers in order to address that issue to reduce that waste along those supply chain and, you know, will consumption and so forth.

So I think that has become more prominent, which to me is a great opportunity for us to contribute to the environment. And that then subsequently impacts the third area, which is the process. Right. So which means that now that, you know, there's this issue of wanting to do business for good. There's also a call for more transparency and that is where, like, for instance, the last couple of years you've seen blockchain technologies, right? Like coming up and becoming more prominent, flowing the fashion companies there. Giving customers detailed information about every step of the product's journey, right. From where it was farmed, from where the wool, for formulae for sweater, and it was shared to a factory.

And then, so for me, that's an interesting shift as well. And then the last, and perhaps what's most exciting for me is the place with the shifter because you starting to see more digital first stores, you know, like Warby Parker, Amazon Bonobos went the runway, you know, they're digitally born. And then they came into the physical world, whereas before it was the other way around, right.

You have these brick and mortar stores and then they start to think about digital. But now that's like, you, you flipped it on its head. Almost.

Christopher Lacy: You know in that one response; I feel like you uncovered so many things that I want to talk about. And I'm like, you know the Gemini in me  is trying to figure out what it is I want to go towards first.  Let's go with this first. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah.

Christopher Lacy: We are currently in a global crisis or situation that we've never experienced before that has affected everything from supply chain to customer engagement. So, you know, you brought up sustainability and it's been something that has been talked about in the industry ad nauseam for years.

And you know, one of the things I think about with this pandemic is that it is going to make us level set about how we consume and what we're consuming and being far more conscious than that. What do you think is going to matter in the next six months to a year after this COVID-19 pandemic? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Indeed, you know, I was having conversation with my friend saying that I'm really curious to see the measurements with regards to, you know, the carbon emission when in a few months’ time, because a lot of you know, logistics. So, with the airplanes and the transportation and our consuming and producing ways of, I would imagine would have a dramatic shift.

But that being said, I think when it comes to retail, I would say, you know, if you allow me to indulge, I would say there were two areas. Firstly, now at the moment, the brick and mortars are closed, right? Well, except for the essential businesses. And so that means that retailers are inevitably forced to amp up their online presence.

So, this digital world, which by the way, is already an environment that's already crowded and noisy, you know? Cause that's like, what? 4.5 or something billion people on the internet. So, these barriers to entry are really low and they're already competing for, so now you're competing for attention, first revenue second rate, and it's not a local scale anymore.

It's, they're competing on global scale. So, if they think that they weren't a global business before now, more than ever, it's becoming a hard reality. So we're starting to see, you know, this creative approaches in coming up with ways that could make a full experience in a brick and mortar like the use of augmented reality to project your shoe on the foot or how glasses would look like on your face with Warby Parker. In fact, early today I was seeing a survey result that was done over 2000 people, I think in the US somewhere in the US and they were saying how nowadays people, they did a survey across various retail businesses and got glasses. Apparently, people are demanding video calls more than just phone calls and the same applies for pharmacy. So yeah, and just saying that, you know, because of these we're looking for creative avenues to still engage with our customers and even the same applies for furniture, right? Like the Ikea, for instance, where you could have a digital twin in your office of a chair, In your room.  And I think this is already out there, so it will, for me it wouldn't be surprising to see that more retailers are jumping on board with these kind of tactics, which would be also beneficial when things go back to quote unquote normal, which are only ironically now will be the new normal. So yeah, so for me personally though I would like to see more intelligence being injected into this digital experience.

So for instance, that of telling me what small, medium, or large or extra-large or extra small or whatever, with correspond to whatever size numbers that maybe how about I give you my measurements and you show me how this would look like for my digital twin, my personal, you know, virtual representation of my physical self-based on the data that I'm willing to give, like my measurements, like my pictures from various angles, which I'm already posting on not really, but you know, people are posting on Instagram or whatever. And then, you know, through my you know, movement or electoral that you know what I'm doing, squats or pushups, I'm going to go from, you know, a small to medium which means that my hacks, my health will be affected by my sugar levels. So, data regarding my cholesterol and you know, my heartbeat and what have you, then you can tell me by predicting my intent that, Hey, you know, here are some of the partners in your ecosystem.

Or within my radius that I can connect with for wellness coaching or holistic healing or, you know, online or otherwise, whatever. So, I think this being able to not just come up with tactical approaches, but also strategic, vision, insight would be beneficial not just for now, but also in the long run when you know, business rhythms, quote, unquote as usual. So meanwhile, you've already seen social commerce happening, right? So why not? For instance, this has always been from B2B and then B to C, but there's also this fundamental connection with CTC that we are not leveraging yet. It's already out there. And perhaps this is a time where we could leverage that.

So, you know, with this community where consumers are connected to one another, why not pivot your sales associates or stylists to lead a life community forum or you know, throwing a slumber party or something because those things are already happening now. I don't know if you've seen certain alerts Chris, where you know, you could have like house parties and whatever, but anyway, my point is that. 

Christopher Lacy: I am so far removed from it. I'm pretty much usually asleep by nine. So! 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Well, actually this is a morning party that starts at 11. So, I think I'll send you a request anyway. 

Christopher Lacy: Morning party. I'm going to do it. I promise.

Dr. Niz Safrudin:  I do. It's so wonderful, you start off with like a yoga, then you dance a little bit and you have intention setting. So, this whole, you know, I think it's very now where we're more aligned with consciousness. So that comes back to the whole sustainability, inclusivity. And so, what my point is that brands need to support a community now so that the community can support the brands too, you know, because people don't buy products, people buy brands. So, this would then be a shift, from a business model from being that of a, just a shoe retailer to a lifestyle brand. I mean, wouldn't it be fabulous. 

Christopher Lacy: Well, I think what you hit on which is what I love. And I think I love this word that you used "intent" you and I have a connection because we both believe in and practice the art of meditation and being present and understanding what is your intention when you get up every day?

What is your intention when you are making a decision? And I think it's important that retailers start to understand how to get into what people's intent is. No one really understands why people buy, what they buy, what their buying pattern is. I think that's probably one of the things every retailer has always been trying to figure out since the beginning of time, because it's not necessarily always based on functionality.

And we know that we buy a lot more things from an emotional standpoint, I would care to admit. When you talk about intent and when we think about this crisis we're in right now, and I love that you brought out functionality of clothing, so our mindsets will change. What will our clothing be able to do for us in the future when it comes to, will it tell me if I'm about to have a stroke, maybe?

How do we integrate technology into our clothing design? Because let's be honest, there's going to be a level of fear when people go back out. And I absolutely believe that we are going to see a great number of people engaging in brick and mortar locations. Again, more so than before. I mean, you know digital commerce 360 in biz ray did a survey of I think, you know, maybe 1,050 online shoppers right now. And within the survey, what they found is that the ordering behavior of 69% of them had not changed. And 20% of them place a few more orders online. So here we are. And granted, it's still the beginning of this pandemic, but you know, I think in a lot of people said, it was like, wow, everyone's really gonna start ordering online.

And that really didn't happen in that way. Right. So, we don't see this big shift of tons, more people just ordering online. So, I think there's still something to be said to your point about the social interaction and what is C to C going to look like.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah.

Christopher Lacy: You know, you and I have talked about and using this word it's funny. You know, I say omni-channel because omni channel is what you see, I can already hear you laughing.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: I am a bit allergic to this term, but there's just me. 

Christopher Lacy: Yeah, exactly. And I'm bringing this up because I want you to tell me why you're allergic to that term. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: I mean, you know, there's always this I mean from my, you know, my humble opinion, omni channel has never really taken off. I mean it’s; I find it to be more of an aspirational dream that's struggled into manifesting into reality. I mean, you tell me who out there are the prime examples of omni-channel plan is like, you know, you can give me a handful of people, but who have mastered this. Probably like in the back of the days, it was like Burberry, you know, someone comes into the store they're aware of and engage with their tablet, but that was like, what about a decade ago? also or less. 

Anyway, my point is that, we were always talking about this seamless experience between the physical world and the digital world. And you don't really see that really happening because if you go into a store, people know you, they don't and you know, do they know what you would like to know if you have purchased?

It's only until you, you know, it's not as personal as you would really be. And the question is why, right? Because it's such a complex, multifaceted phenomenon that we haven't really cracked yet to the extent that we can say, wow, that was seamless. It was delightful. They know exactly what I wanted and what matters to me.

So this remains a challenge to date, right? Like how can we create a meaningful and seamless experience that transcends across both physical and digital worlds? And how do we approach this? 

Christopher Lacy: I agree with you on this in the sense that I always think omni-channel works best in those situations where it really is functional need. 

And I say that because, you know, I always think of Home Depot and I think they do it really well, but I don't go to Home Depot for an emotional reason, right? I'm going to Home Depot because they have the goods for me to complete a project that I want to do. So out of the necessity to complete the project, I go to home Depot and I can engage with and navigate the store via their mobile device. And they've made things they've made the transaction simple and I, to your point where you go, you've gone into a place no one knows you. Well, the thing is that as a society we wanted to not be noticed until we were ready to be noticed.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: I am down with that.

Christopher Lacy: That makes it, you know, from a sales associate perspective that's difficult from a brand perspective, that's difficult. And quite frankly, many of us, when we go out and we're shopping, I don't think we know who we are a lot of the time. And so we're consistently going out to be inspired. And it's, I mean, how do you aggregate or how do you create. an omnichannel experience in that way when the people you're engaging with they're not exactly sure of what they want. So, I agree with you.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: I mean yeah, that's the thing, right? Like that's why I say that it's a multifaceted approach. I mean, from a service design perspective you kind of have to you know, have the comprehensive picture as you possibly can.

So, you know, to understand who is your audience, who are you serving, who is the persona that you're servicing and providing value for? You know, what is the pain point of the consumer along their journey.? And then you map that with the journey of the businesses. So, from the frontline workers, serving the customers, you know, what are their challenges and for the backstage workers, what are their barriers for an, you know, efficient and effective performance?

So, you have these and for the supporting processes, you know, what a challenge is there, and chances are, there's a lot of manual and siloed operations. and so how can we leverage contemporary technologies that exist today? Like, like machine learning or whatever.  Then so that's why you need to ask, like, who are we today? Who do you want to be in the next 10 years’ time, then you do that back cost right through to five years down in, cost it back again? Then you have your roadmap to what's an exciting, you know, which transformation journey that would at least try to the best as possible to address that, you know, Omni channel experience, so to speak.

Christopher Lacy: Well, I think, you know, when we, when we think about Omni channel and we think of data. I think the reason sometimes it feels as though the omnichannel experience misses it is because we've only ever looked.  We've always kept data so separate, it's either operational data or emotional data. What we never do a great job of kind of blending both.

And I want to say you and your team. And I think SAP is right on the forefront of figuring out how operational and emotional data work together. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah.

Christopher Lacy: Yeah. So how are you guys doing that? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: I would say that, you know, Yeah, you're absolutely right. That is the heart of our business today. So, you know, let's start with the basics first, right?

So, this operational or data tells you about the what of things. So, what is the outcome in terms of finance, supply chain, sales customers, you know, and so forth. So, they're really truly operational/ transactional data, right? Well, the question is that most organizations don't know is why are they the way that they are?

So that's why you have this X data, or you know, this emotional, we call it experience data, which gives you insights into the reason why you're getting those results. So, from a product perspective, from a brand perspective through to the customer and the employee perspective, right? Then you have this holistic amount of data.

And you're absolutely right. A lot of times, a lot of companies have siloed data structures anyway, which impacts that. Right? And so that's where the concept of this intelligent enterprise comes to play where you will be leveraging intelligent technologies like machine learning, blockchain, artificial intelligence, you know, analytics, cloud platform integration, and all that good stuff.

So, I'll give you an example. Perhaps one of my favorite cases is the intelligent enterprise inspired by Adidas. So, you know, Adidas is really big on personalization. They, you know, they believe that, everyone should feel special with whatever that they have you know, purchased from Adidas and which seeks to be the best sporting brand in the world.

So, in this journey towards an enterprise intelligent enterprise, you know, they really start off from you know, the marketing and sales, understanding the consumer behavior, personalization, you know, profiling and understanding what the consumer demands are. And then that informs their product design, right?

Like, so when they can customize their shoes, so they know what colors would they, would like, what colors they could forecast in the future, thanks to you know, machine learning or predictive analysis or whatever it is. Once you have the product design, then that will inform what you're going to procure. Right?

 So that goes through procurement and then that procurement takes you to the manufacturing and all the way to logistics. So that means that you have the intelligence to inform from the top floor, to the shop floor and where every decision and process is connected. Right? All the data are connected at that certain point in time. And so that reduces the launch of a new product. Concept from being 18 months to as little as three weeks. So, for me, that is where you can understand what's happening in the operational side of the house into the logistics and everything. And then you understand what the customers, why they're wise, like what they are driven towards and you merge them with this intelligent technology and platform.

And there you go; you have a business where you able to a). Make money from the revenue that you are generating from the sales and getting a return on investment from marketing and b). You can save money from deficiencies because you're not producing too much or too little for example. 

Christopher Lacy: I mean, I think this is the answer where we're going to need to see companies go into the direction of, especially after we come out of this crisis because this limits the need, or it limits the situation of creating too much products. Right. And you know, this has played to retail for quite some time. I mean, many of them right now, the biggest stress is, okay, we are, you know, this happened in Q one Q two. Typically, we would go into sales cycle with an understanding that full price deliveries would happen.

So we'd have a sale client that's shopping, plus a full price client that shopping, you know, they'd be looking at what the sell through is. And now we have a lot of inventory on hand and places. And this is going to change the game for the rest of the year, because we've produced inventory in general, you know, far too much maybe for what is being desired.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah.

Christopher Lacy:  This information, you know, if you're a company who's going, okay, what do we do next? And understanding, there's a financial impact that's now happened, what do we do with our money to, you know, how do we invest it appropriately? For the, and I would argue that this is something that you would need to look at investing with, right? Because it's really going into in the future. How do we not be in a spot where we would be way down by a lot of inventory?

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Absolutely

Christopher Lacy: I want to ask you something because you know, we've talked so far about, you know, to me things that, you know, they're extremely interesting and, you know, I could talk about them forever, but in lieu of time, I want to know what it is that gets you excited about our industry and your role in it.

You know, when you wake up in the morning, what are you, you know, what just gives you that, like what I get to do this today? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s the word that pops to mind is convergence. And I would say this is a Omni channel and steroids perhaps better. And that's, you know, again, for me what gets me really excited is this concept of you know, you have this physical world and then you have this digital world, right. And designing an experience for the consumer for the businesses for every party is involved with in the ecosystem that is meaningful and seamless.

That gets me excited. It's a grand challenge, hard to crack, but Hey, you know, I'm not one for boring things. Otherwise I'll continue sleeping and not get out of bed. Right. Yeah. So, I especially, and you know, I'm a bit old school as well, so I really, I appreciate, very much, the physical environment. And so this whole brick and mortar thing, so, you know, I actually what drives me is also to ensure that these companies go back to their roots of why, you know, why did we exist in the first place? Not the businesses. I mean, the businesses, not individuals, that's another separate conversation. Also, these brick and mortar stores, like now, can you imagine after this COVID right.

Well, when it not so much after, but when it starts to subside. So, it's a bit, cause we're at this peak right now at some point going to plateau and then it's going to decline. Right. And then when we finally free again to visit with brick and mortar stores, I mean, consumers will be really good and reason as to why you want to step into those stores.

You know? I mean, why would they. If you can already have these digital twins or products through augmented reality or virtual or whatever, but of course you need that whole touch and feel factor, but that's not enough, you know, that it would be just be a chore rather than a destination. So, which means that retailers really need to work a look inward, right.

And ask themselves and do some introspection and say, what are we trying to achieve here other than sales? Because sales will come naturally with the mission that you are going to serve. Right. And anyway, with this lock down extended for another month now, they would already need to rethink what are they going to do, as you said, rightfully so with the existing stock, other than dusting and offloading all stock to sales. Okay. But importantly, how are you going to support their, you know, the, the internal human resources and the community as a whole? 

So my, what I see or I hope to see is that these brick and mortar stores start devoting their space in time in connecting with the neighborhood community, you know, having a dialogue, educating them, so forth indicates we talk about them in return too much, you know, there's this concept, I think that is also working on upcycling and recycling, you know, and the Gunyah Roth is they're all on that path.

And so how can we have a dialogue with community? How can we learn more from them or to better our business? Because you know, also anyway, like that saying. You know, if you hang around the, around a barbershop or a nail salon long enough, at some point you get a haircut or a manicure, you know, because your fancy right.

And studies actually showed that the longer people spend time in a store, the likelier they are to buy something, they then they would online like 89% of women and 78% of men who visit physical stores shared that they added additional items in their cart beyond the identified needs. 

Christopher Lacy: Yeah.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: So, you know, that's why that's, so there are many ways where retailers can provide you know, jobs for community and still serve a purpose, but this won't work without all these gimmicks, though.

It has to be real. It has to be authentic. And that is what gets me excited because I really want to help businesses reconnect with their true purpose, their true mission, and, you know, and really serve because then the revenue sales and all that good stuff will come anyway. 

Christopher Lacy: And there, you have it, everyone! From an ex social scientist.

Dr. Niz Safrudin: And hippie at heart!

Christopher Lacy: You know, I think the thing I want to take most from that is you said something that just resonates with me, which is remove the gimmick. I think the gimmick becomes. So, I don't know if it's exhaustive sometimes to me, because I've been in the industry for far too long. For 23 years, and so you just kind of know it, but sometimes you just want to be like, yeah.

You know, but why are you doing this? You know, I think, you know, Brooks brothers did something that I appreciate. So, they, you know, hey took three of their factories and turned them into being able to produce goods for hospitals and medical goods. Now here's why that it to me, it did not feel gimmicky and it didn't feel you know, as a way to kind of be at the forefront so that after this people think of Brooks brothers, they were established in 1818 and they have always said they're the oldest retailer in America. Their DNA is that they have supported the country in some way by either making uniforms in some way. And so, I think for them to do this, it was, well, this is who we are. And we haven't forgotten about who, who we are. So,we're going to do this because this is what we do. And then when this is all over said and done with, we'll go back to who we become, but we need to be who we were for a second. And I love for that. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah, that's beautiful.

Christopher Lacy: It's amazing. And I, you know, and, and I myself, I will admit I'm on a, you know, I was a huge fan of Brooks Brothers black fleece, and you know, I, I love the things that they do and their quality, but I don't think that's gimmicky. I think that that is its most authentic. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Totally that. And people can smell that a mile away, you know, whether you, I mean, kudos to them for anyone who's trying out these new technologies, but you know, trying technologies for technology's sake, you know, it's, it doesn't make sense. You really have to address what is the problem that's most pressing now. And also, that you could see would address in the future. Right? That's why this whole sustainability topic is such a big thing, because if we continue the way that we do, but you know, especially with the use of plastics, then you know, by 2030, they will be more plastics than fishes in the ocean. I mean, how tragic is that for the next generation, right? 

Christopher Lacy: It's extremely tragic. I think what we're going to see, you know, as you mentioned earlier is when this is you know, sub subsides, how we will see the planet change in this period of time will be really interesting and extremely telling. And I should say telling not even just for the fashion industry, cause the fashion industry always takes the brunt of a lot of what happens.

And yes, it does does create a lot of ways, but a lot of things create a lot of waste and there are even you know, things that are happening with our own countries with certain types of regulations that might be rolled back or whatever. So, we all play a huge part in, and I always say that you know, there's this thing where we point our finger at the fashion industry, but we also are participating in the fashion industry all the way down to. How often do I wash my clothes? 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Christopher Lacy: It's all those things that go into it. So, it's going to put a magnifying glass on a lot of industries. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: They're all connected. You know, I mean the oil, I mean, fashion industry may require some plastic packaging, which they are reducing at the moment and that, you know, plastic is eventually comes from oil and gas. Right. And so that goes through, you know, manufacturing and you know, it's like, it's a whole value chain that's inter-connected. So that's why I’m excited for companies who are looking at the circular economy, whether it's not just linear, you know, it's not like credits are great, but credits are greater. I think that's an exciting opportunity. Yes, there are a lot of damages that's happening right now, but it's time for us to get creative. You know, how can we turn this around and not, instead of it being a waste, how can we turn into a resource? You know? And that's why also I'm excited about the next generation, the younger generation, because they're, I don't know if you realize there are much more awake at like, you know, they're awake more so than they're very conscious about they're consuming habits. Like I know handful of gen Z where they're like, this is my only coffee I have today. I'm not gonna, you know, bring a buy another one because I didn't bring my reusable cup. And I was like, wow. That's so these guys are just inspiring. And so I'm optimistic about the future, but not naive.

Of course, I think we have to take calculated risks. But yeah, it's time to get creative guys. I mean, how fun is that? We get to redesign the future. 

Christopher Lacy: We get to redesign the future. That is the best way for us to end this conversation. I don't think I could have ended it with anything better than we get to redesign the future.

So Niz I want to, for our listeners, this has been, you know, on behalf of our listeners, this has been such an amazing conversation with you. How can they stay informed about what you and your team are doing at SAP?

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Yeah, so, I mean, SAP is huge. sap.com is one way. You can find me on LinkedIn.I typically posts updates regarding the projects or initiatives that we're working on. Also, If you Google search SAP AppHaus, you'll be able to see, you know, the projects, not just within, in New York, because we're a team that's scattered across, Berlin, Seoul, Korea, Heidelberg, Palo Alto. So, and we regularly update our products there. So if you need some inspiration or you need some help, we also have tools that are totally open that you could use, like you know, taking that human centered approach to innovation, using a design thinking mindset and saying, doing it's all out there, but otherwise feel free to reach out to me. Email. Yeah. Anyway. 

Christopher Lacy: Thank you so much Dr. Niz Safrudin. It has been such a pleasure to have you with us today on Retail Revolution. I am super excited and pumped and stoked to go redesign the future. Thank you so much. 

Dr. Niz Safrudin: Thank you.

Joshua Williams: Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, our guests, our students and fellow faculty at Parsons School of Design, especially in such an extraordinary and unprecedented time. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell. 

Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.

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