Transcript - Natalie Zfat
Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution is a special, limited podcast created specifically for "Retailing and Service Design," a unique course that is part of the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design in New York City. Each episode features in-depth conversations with guest experts in omnichannel retailing, with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to the short- and long- term challenges and implications of COVID-19 and potential opportunities to rethink retail's future. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are Assistant Professors in the School of Fashion at Parsons.
Christopher Lacy: I am your host, Christopher Lacy, and welcome to another episode of Retail Revolution podcast. Before we get started, don't forget to subscribe or download on your preferred podcast platform. You can also access our blog transcripts and previous episodes at RetailRevolutionPodcast.com.
All right, revolutionaries. The personal mantra of our guest today is that success means never doing the same thing twice, unless it was really fun the first time. She is a New York based writer, social media expert, on-camera host and just an all-around powerhouse. I am so excited to have Natalie Zfat on the show today.
Natalie Zfat: Thank you so much, Chris. It's great to be here.
Christopher Lacy: Natalie, I think when we started Retail Revolution podcast, Josh and I, right off the bat, we knew at some point we're going to need you on the show. And there's a reason for that. So I'd love for you to tell all of our listeners about you.
Natalie Zfat: Well, I would be happy to. I can start out by telling you what I do for a living, which I like, I think as a small part of who I am, but I'll start with that. So, my name is Natalie Zfat and for the last 10 years I have been a social media entrepreneur, a small business owner, recovering journalist, and I've been teaching companies how to do business, the old-fashioned way, online. Our retail clients, over the last decade, have included some luxury brands like Ellie Tahari, Ted Baker, Lafayette 148. And most recently we've worked with some brands like Adidas, Levi's and Lucky Brand.
Christopher Lacy: That's awesome! When you and I met, I thought to myself, you really understand the industry in so many different aspects, not just from a fashion perspective, but also from a technology perspective. And really get a grasp of what the user experience should look like and really just how a brand should present itself. And, and I'm excited to talk to you in more detail about that today.
My first question to you, as we think, and look at the landscape of retail during COVID-19. What are your thoughts on retail's digital and eCommerce experience as a result of it? How do you see this changing?
Natalie Zfat: Hmm. Well, do you want the list? How long is this podcast? No, I mean, I, I think people are obviously changing their spending habits and their purchase habits, but I don't think it has to be a scary thing, as much as it can be perceived as an opportunity for retailers to adapt. For example, looking at millennials who sort of have been known for more than a decade for their love of experiences. Obviously saving a lot of money right now, right? There are no available experiences for them. In many cases they're stocking up on items, you know, panic buying or, or even sort of looking at retail as retail therapy. You know, subscription services seeing a huge uptick over the last few months, with people kind of anticipating less and less shopping trips.
So, I do think there are opportunities, but I think we would be remiss if we didn't address, obviously the concerns, that a lot of brands have experienced. Specifically, I think in the luxury sector; I read something from Vogue Business that they sort of predicted I think a loss as great as 10 billion for the luxury sector in 2020.
Of course, with no surprise as a result of COVID. Brands like Everlane closing all their stores. But I do think they're still within those brands opportunities, saving money on physical store expenses, events, conferences. I just spoke with a brand, the CMO of that brand told me that he just got back his entire 2020 trade show budget, and what can we do digitally with it, Natalie? So, I do think there are opportunities within sort of an evolving and, in some cases, seemingly bleak retail environment.
Christopher Lacy: I agree with you because one of the things we heard over and over again was "brick and mortar is an important," "brick and mortar is important." We also now realize during this COVID-19 that brick and mortar absolutely is important and has always been relevant. And now it is a mad dash to switch gears and go, how do we make an eCommerce experience feel like it's brick and mortar.
And for me I'm super excited to see how augmented reality and 3D starts to play a role in how we're engaging with the audience, the fashion audience. And we're seeing really cool things coming from people like Nick Knight, his Instagram alone and his digital fashion shows and things he's doing for Margiela. I think seeing that and it truly being the future right now, instead of it being five years down the road, which is, I think where we were kind of all in our mindset, like, okay, in three to five years, that's where we'll be. And it's like, no, now we're here and it's six months out. So, that's exciting.
Natalie Zfat: Yeah, I think you're right that COVID, in some cases, has sort of sped up that retail evolution. I know that social media engagement has increased like 60% over normal usage rates just over the last few months. And it makes sense. Right. You know, the mayor of Newark is answering questions about COVID on Facebook Live, and your favorite yoga instructor is doing their classes on IG Live. And honestly, I'm more surprised that more brands aren't doing what Margiela is doing, using IG Live to do selling, QVC style. You know, why aren't we using the platform where more people are than ever before to share product and sell? The internet has never been more of a need or even a source of, information, source of inspiration for people than it is right now.
Christopher Lacy: And it being a source of inspiration., in that earlier statement you made, where you said, you know, you, you spoke to someone who said, now we have this budget and now I get to do something with it digitally. And it makes me want to ask you, if you were in their shoes, and you knowing what's happening out there in the space with technology, what would you invest in if it were your organization? What is something that you see that you go, okay, that's really cool. We need to be doing that. Or brands should be doing that.
Natalie Zfat: Totally a hundred percent social media. I think social media often is, is a lot more about psychology than technology. But I think if a brand and starts to really invest in understanding how their consumers think, what they're going to respond to, how to entertain, inspire, educate if you're lucky your consumer through social.
And that's a combination of organic, hiring a really solid talented content team. And then also investing in some advertisements so that your posts go beyond just the people who follow you. I think that's the first place I would invest my dollar because I think on social, you really do get a lot for your buck.
Versus, going into the VR sector, or really making a investment in something that we hope will land. We haven't necessarily seen the ROI in the same way. I would start with social, if that hasn't been a major source of investment for your brand, I would a hundred percent start there.
Christopher Lacy: I think it's really difficult for a lot of brands to get social right. I mean we've seen the hiring over the last three, five, six years where the digital and digital marketing departments have opened up a role for a social media content person. But I think it's something really difficult to navigate. As a brand, do you have the right brand image on Instagram and it seemed different than what everyone else is posting fashion-wise on an Instagram, or through Twitter, and trying to find that line. What's your advice, especially to existing or startup brands, finding that authenticity in your voice on social media?
Natalie Zfat: I'll give a brand the same advice I would give of a person, I would give a small business owner that I work with, which is, if you are looking at social media as an opportunity to either inform, educate, entertain or inspire, you're going to naturally find that your metrics are growing.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of setting benchmarks and being quantity obsessed instead of quality obsessed. Why aren't we moving more units? Why don't I see more of our new collection featured in the imagery? Are we posting enough? How many comments are we getting? You know, I think it's actually pretty the natural, right, to ask yourself those questions. If you're a social media manager. But I think if you are thinking about it strategically, and you're thinking about how do I create a page that I would follow if I didn't work for this brand? that I would gain value from? Again, whether it's funny, beautiful, valuable, that's going to be dependent upon the brand you work for, what their brand values are, and their brand tenants are. That's the kind of key to the castle, in terms of succeeding online.
Christopher Lacy: When we think about how COVID has impacted every industry and we look at social media, we also understand that it's impacted our behavior in such a way that we really are all living off of it more than we ever were before, in a good way, because now we're connecting with people that we may have not connected with before. We're seeing brands we may not have noticed before, because we had to slow down a bit. With that comes kind of this collaboration or this integration of two industries that we didn't think would have made sense before. And so you have the gaming industry, which has existed as it has for years. I mean, I, I don't think I could ever call myself a gamer, but I totally was the boy who had Atari, you know, and having Pole Position, like that was me. So, I played games for a long time. As I think about, you know, my days of playing Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter, the idea of that meshing with the fashion industry was so far from my head. And now here we are where technology, a pandemic, social engagement through gaming platforms, it's changed our industry. So, I would love to get your thoughts on how luxury brands and gaming brands can continue to come together to create these digital moments.
Natalie Zfat: Yeah, I think it's a really solid observation and a surprise to me as much as it is to you. Right? I do identify as a gamer. I have been playing, we call them god games, if you're familiar, they're basically games for people who are type a, who like to control the world that they live in, in the virtual sense and also in the literal sense. And so I grew up playing tTheme Hospital and Rollercoaster Tycoon and the Sims. And while I know that gaming is $120 billion industry expected to reach 300 billion in the next few years, I didn't really see that luxury brands would be investing in them the way that they have. And, it's not surprising if you think about it. I think if you think about an intelligent luxury brand who wants to capture their consumers eye, they can't just throw up billboards and place Facebook ads. They have to meet their consumer where they're at. And this is an exploding industry. And if you want to really get in front of a certain consumer, this is a great way to do it. I know Louis Vuitton designed outfits for League of Legend avatars. I know Moschino designed for the Sims. I mean, I do think we're going to continue to see that, and again, a perfect example of a brand that says, how can we reimagine, during a time like this, where to put our investment dollars, you know, people aren't exactly walking around Times Square and looking at our billboards. Where are our consumers eyeballs? And in many cases, the answer is on YouTube, on Twitch gaming.
Christopher Lacy: Yeah, and I think it's also quite obviously that it's the new luxury consumer, while COVID is wiped out many previous, people who could have been in that space, through different types of bankruptcies. It's also made new millionaires, right? Who are in the gaming industry? And what I would love to see is how luxury embraces and helps them navigate the luxury space on their terms.
And I love that. I love that there's this way that they aren't having to step into luxury in a way that's not authentic to them.
Natalie Zfat: I think that's the key, right? That it doesn't feel forced. I think if you were a gamer, you might actually go through an entire game not knowing that a luxury brand was integrated. But if you are a gamer who also has knowledge of the luxury industry, it might actually catch your eye and be a nice sort of surprise and delight moment for you.
Christopher Lacy: Yeah. And I think that's, that's where we have to be thinking at all times. And I think that's kind of how authenticity should work. This has been a big thing for me. And we've talked about it a lot on Retail Revolutionover the last few months, because we've had civil unrest going on, obviously, as you all know. And how COVID impacted certain groups. So, when we talk about brands communicating authentically today, and it not seeming like they're jumping on a band wagon. How do they do that? Especially when it comes to social platforms, because at one point, if you don't say anything it's a problem, but if you say something and it doesn't seem authentic and with your values, like it falls flat, and I'm sure you're seeing this across the board. What would have been your thoughts on this?
Natalie Zfat: Yeah, it's a tough one. I suspect that the brands who are people first are going to succeed at this time. A great example is Microsoft who announced that they're going to continue paying their hourly employees, of which they have 4,500, their regular wage even if their work hours are reduced.
Another example, Mark Cuban Companies said he will reimburse any meals, any lunches, any coffees that you purchase from a small business, again, to keep the economy going, to support those small businesses who need us more than ever.
Twitter covering their employees, daycare expenses.
Adobe, who I actually work with, they're offering free creative tools for the last few months for people who are small business owners and need to design things that stand out on social media.
Even though I think some of the things that people have announced are sort of gimmicky. In some cases, you could question, are they just doing this so that the brand looks good or are they doing it because they actually want to do good. I don't think that it actually matters. I think if it's good for their employees and they are people first organization let's take that. Let's take those benefits however we can get them. And let this be the time that companies stand out, because again, you know, like Twitter and others, they're letting their employees work from home. They're covering those daycare expenses for those single or single parent homes, or even the home in which both parents are working.
Christopher Lacy: And I think it's important that you said it's a people-first organization, because I am going to call out my own industry. Because I've lived it for so long. It's very much product and revenue first. And publicly there's always some article that's written about whichever company is doing something, But I know the people who were working for those companies in the store, dealing with customers. And as the country starts to open back up, hearing the horror stories that these employees are dealing with, coming from their corporate communications, where it's, we need to sell more. You may have made flat to LY but we still need more. We still need more. And so, you have this mentality, I think in the fashion industry, that I was hoping would change with COVID-19. It can't just always be about revenue, revenue, revenue. What does it look like for the people? And what I'm hearing just from all fronts is that that hasn't changed yet.
And it now makes me question the authenticity even more so when it comes to a fashion company. Because the companies you mentioned, for example, really are in the tech field and in retail, no doubt, but definitely not fashion. And I think this is something that the fashion industry has got to figure out; how do they become people-first.
Natalie Zfat: Hmm.
Christopher Lacy: And it's scary because I don't know that they're thinking in that way. And I think consumers are going to really care about that. And we see this all the time and I think that's the core of cancel culture. Right? Is, are you authentic or not?
Natalie Zfat: Yeah, I mean, that actually is what I was thinking as you were talking is, these companies may not have authentic reasons for posting about Black Lives Matter or COVID, and the difference between them being inauthentic now, and them being inauthentic a year ago, is that now they're getting called out. If you go to the comment section of a retail brand, who for the first time in years is posting, black faces, black ideas.
you will, in many cases, see the comments section and it's, it's alarming how I've seen retail managers, store managers come out and say, I worked at your company for X years. I found out that X employee, not of color, was promoted before me, even though I outperformed them, I was with the company longer. They're telling those stories in the comment section of these brand’s Instagrams, and I don't know about you, but six months ago, I wasn't seeing that. I think it's created this open conversation where people are not afraid, on both sides, you know, minorities, white people to tell their story of what they've seen, in the retail environment, in the technology sector, in the sports arena. I think this is one of the first times, in my lifetime, I've been alive 34 years, where I really do feel like people are, talking about things that for years they were fearful to come to the table with.
Christopher Lacy: I agree with you. And, it's been interesting for me to see a lot of the comments. Cause now I'm obsessed with reading comments.
Natalie Zfat: Sure.
Christopher Lacy: And, you read them and you're like, yeah, for me, a lot of it, I lived myself. And I'll never forget, there was a company I worked for where I actually was doing the job of the store director, cause they hadn't found one. And I was operations. They had, let me know that they would be hiring someone who was from the country that this brand is from, to really kind of be the face of the store, even though they had no experience in retail. So, they needed me to do all the things of running the store, just without the title. Somebody else would do that, and the salary.
And so…
Natalie Zfat: What did you, what did you do in that situation? I'm sure that must have been a really difficult thing to respond to.
Christopher Lacy: I remember it like it was yesterday. I remember smiling and being like, yeah, absolutely. You know, whatever you need me to do to help them out. And, and team player, will totally support it.
Of course, I left. And then, I knew like plenty of different recruiters and I sent an email and was like, I need you to start looking for something for me. I mean, what is my option to do; I was coming into my own at that point in my career and going on, I'm not going to take a step back and play this game. Like I know enough that I know my worth. And that had to happen. And at that time, I was 28. And it was scary because we were, at that time, it was a recession going on. We were in 2008, 2009. So, you kind of always had this idea that you felt thankful for whatever job you have. And I think we'll see that happening with COVID as well, but I think maybe not so badly because to your point, companies are being called out. So yeah. So now you don't have people who are afraid and feel like I'm just lucky to have this job and I can be treated any way. And that's a big part of it, right, is a lot of times, anyone else may have, or many people would've stayed in that position because it was a recession at the time. I should be thankful to have a job. And I, I was not of that mindset. But yeah. So that was me on that!
If there's anything on social media, you know, it's influencer culture. And there has been so much talk about Instagram removing likes, I think when you and I met a year ago it was had just kind of come out, right? I think the summer of last year. And we, we briefly talked about it.
What do you think is going to happen with the role of the influencer going forward?
Natalie Zfat: I'm really glad you brought this up, because I have many thoughts about it. And I think what I've realized over the last four months with regards to the effect of COVID on the influencer marketing world, is that this is going to really be a time that separates the influencers who have true, business acumen from the ones who have been sort of flying by night.
Christopher Lacy: Hmm.
Natalie Zfat: The influencers I know who know how to pitch brands, who have money saved up for when a month or two goes by without a branded opportunity. The influencers I know who can create interesting from their homes rather than from the inside of a private plane or a foreign country that they're visiting for the first time. Those are the ones who we have already seen continue to create beautiful content, keep their engagement, numbers up, attract the attention of brands, get media recognition. And, most importantly, stay in business. A lot of these influencers have teams. They have assistants, they have photographers, videographers editing teams as well, and they're responsible for a significant economic investment. Right?
So, if we if we look at the influencers who have, that business acumen, I do think that we're going to outperform and also outwork their non savvy counterparts, who for maybe a few years have gotten away with waiting for a brand to send you an email, doing the post, asking their followers what they want to see next on their channels and getting a response.
I think this is going to be the time that we really see who is able to thrive in an environment that's not glamorous and as inspirational as we would hope, you know, at least not aesthetically. This is the time that we're going to kind of see, I think a shift in who's really going to cut through the clutter and rise to the top.
Christopher Lacy: It's going to be quite interesting to see if influencers can really be real at this point, right? I know that the accounts I connect to the most, there's a real grit to them. Like, everything isn't overly done photo wise.
As a matter of fact, your account is very good at that, where it's fun, it's humorous at times. It's, you know what I mean? You're bringing a full life perspective. And I feel like people who are engaging with the content now are going to want a full life perspective. To your point, they don't want to see somebody who's on a private plane right now, probably
Natalie Zfat: Fair. That's fair. I think it's fair. I mean, I think the, you look at the Kylie J e nners who are obviously among the most followed and engaged with. She's doing the thing on the private plane. She's doing the thing the Oman Ghery, the $5,000 a night hotel, it's working for her. Is it going to work for everyone? No, of course not. But I think that brings up the authenticity piece again, Chris, which is that what do you come to that person for? Is it aspirational? Do you really believe that they are living that life? If so, you might be able to get behind some of the things that they're doing. But if you're, I don't know, a travel blogger, for example, who hasn't found a way to reinvent, is only posting photos from Iceland in 2016; you're going to get bored.
Christopher Lacy: Right.
Natalie Zfat: We need to kind of see how that person is reimagining their industry or pivoting to another, you know, their choice.
Christopher Lacy: The authenticity of it, I mean, to your point with Kylie Jenner is, if we all saw her, like walking inside a Taco Bell, we'd be like, we know that you would probably never eat Taco Bell. We need to see you not eating Taco Bell. You know what I mean? It's like, you have to be true to what your brand is. And if that's the case, for you, was it hard to navigate your social media as a personal brand? Because you're a part of so many other brands and then there's, Natalie's Zfat's brand. How did you navigate that and make sure that you remained authentic?
Natalie Zfat: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good question. For me. I, I don't know how else to say this other than I know who I am. I have been doing this a long time.
I exercise judgment and restraint every single day before I post. I also, in an industry where people like to chronicle their every move, I am a pretty private person; you don't know necessarily what I'm up to, throughout the course of a workday, or even a weekend on stories. I'm sort of a quality over quantity person.
It hasn't always been easy, but that's kind of what I strive for, is every time I post, I really want to either teach someone something, put a smile on their face. if I can, inspire them to reimagine or rethink their position on an issue or, how they can use social media to grow their business.
I think that's an important thing, not just for people, but also for brands. I mentioned this earlier, but it is really tempting to kind of get caught up in the numbers game. How many followers do we have? Are we posting enough? How many comments do we get? Are we moving enough units for brands? Are we growing our target audience? There are a million questions that I think all lead you away from the ultimate goal on social media, which is to inform and educate; if you're lucky to inspire. I think those are the things you should be really thinking about, as a brand. And I do think if you focus on them, you will naturally find your numbers growing.
Christopher Lacy: When you are approached by a brand, have you ever said no or, or been kind of in this spot where you're like, you're not what I'm about. So, I can't really represent you on my channel.
Natalie Zfat: Oh yeah. It happens. It happens a lot. It happens for a number of reasons. I'll give you an example. We had a liquor brand reach out to us last year and they wanted me to do a couple of posts on my channel; it's always the ones with the most money; they had a nice budget. We looked at my demographics and it's pretty young. I have a lot of high school age in some cases, college age, students who follow me. And we ended up turning it down because the truth is, not that college aged kids aren't drinking, sorry #Parsons. But, but it's, it's more because it wouldn't actually serve their best interest or mine.
This isn't what people are coming to me for. I'm not a food and beverage or, even a lifestyle influencer. My goal is in many cases, on my channels, is to teach people how to run better businesses. I don't think that alcohol necessarily fits in with that. And I just had to make a decision that I thought again, would serve me and them.
And I'm grateful because the agency that brought me the opportunity represents a variety of other brands. They've since come to me with another opportunity in a different industry. And I do think what it ends up doing, if you explain the why to the brand, is it gives them true perspective that you're not just a person who's going to take every single dollar amount that's offered to you. Hawk every product that has been presented to you, you are militant and diligent about what makes sense. And look, it doesn't serve their best interests either for them to not have people who care about their product when they pay me to advertise it. So, I do think honesty is the key kind of a castle when it comes to saying no, explaining the reasons and hopefully it panning out in a better way down the road.
Christopher Lacy: Natalie, I think that's one of the reasons you have so much respect in the industry from so many people, is you sticking to your guns, knowing what you're all about. And it's been a blast to have you on today. Our students are actually a few weeks into their social media marketing class. So, I think this will be something great for them to listen to.
How can they hear about what's going on with you in the future or stay in touch?
Natalie Zfat: This may not come as a surprise to you, Chris, but I'm on the internet! And following me on Twitter or Instagram is a great way to stay in the loop about all things, social media, and feel free to DM me. I think DM is the new inbox. So, if you have a question, a concern, a comment, if you want me to know that Parson students don't drink, feel free to send me a DM and I will happily take a look at it.
Christopher Lacy: Thank you so much for joining us today, Natalie. You have a great, great rest of the week.
Natalie Zfat: You too, Chris. Great talking with you.
Christopher Lacy: You too.
Joshua Williams: Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, our guests are students and fellow faculty at Parsons School of Design, especially in such an extraordinary and unprecedented time. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell.
Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.
