Transcript - Ron Thurston (S3)
Season 3, Episode 10
Conversation with Ron Thurston (S3), Author, “Retail Pride”
Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in depth conversations with guest experts in omnichannel retailing, with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current sociopolitical issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail, as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future.
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Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are assistant professors in the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design.
Christopher Lacy: Welcome to this episode of Retail Revolution podcast. I'm Christopher Lacy, and I am so excited for our guest today, who is here making time for us. He is vice president of stores for Intermix and bestselling author on Amazon for his new book, Retail Pride.
Welcome to the show Ron Thurston.
Ron Thurston: Thank you so much, Christopher.
Christopher Lacy: How's it going Ron?
Ron Thurston: It's going great. It's launch week and we've had some really fantastic success and I'm really happy to be talking to you about it.
Christopher Lacy: I'm happy that you're on the show. I think, for everyone who is listening, if you have not, go back and listen to our very first episode with Ron Thurston. It is the first Retail Revolution podcast we did, and it was actually at the start of the COVID pandemic. I think we were in a month of it at that point, 2 months of it. And, we had you on the show and it's so funny to now talk to you seven months later and kind of see where you are now. So, how has life changed for you since then?
Ron Thurston: Wow, I think for all of us, so much has changed. You know, I think from a business perspective, I think we in the retail industry have worked so incredibly hard around getting our businesses back on track, getting our teams back healthy and safe, getting our customers back where we can, reworking the edit where we need to and because what people are shopping for is different. It's I think one of the most complex years in our business that I've personally ever experienced.
On the book side, it's been a really fun journey this last year, and I'm excited to speak to you about it, but, it, officially launched October 13.
Christopher Lacy: All right. So, we are going to dive into this book. I think this is the funnest conversation I'm probably going to have today, to be honest with you. I had the pleasure of reading the book and I have so many questions for you and for anyone who's listening, the book is called Retail Pride, as I said before. And I have to tell you Ron, as I was reading it, not even when I got to the last page, as I was reading it I absolutely felt a sense of pride and I actually felt emotional and warm all over. And for anyone who's listening, who knows me well, that's amazing. You know, 23 years for me in the industry to have the ability or to have the pleasure of reading a book where somebody just gets it. And I want to ask you what prompted you to write this book celebrating retail?
Ron Thurston: It's really been, I think a combination of the difficulty of the last several years in our business in some aspects. And the fact that I started at a young age in this business and was always proud to work in it, and always found it a bit strange when I was at cocktail parties and events and I would say, "Oh, I work in retail". And then I would say, why do I say it like that? Why do I kind of shirk away from the fact that I actually have a job in an industry that I love and the brands that I do. And I just noticed that about myself and as time went on and worked for some incredible companies and, have gotten even, I would say more clear on what I'm really good at. I recognize the fact that this is actually not just me, this is an entire industry of people, millions of people, who are often in this industry accidentally, who don't always celebrate the fact that this is really incredible work that they do every day. And it's highly complex. And it's very emotional and we're very driven and we're like one of the most impressive groups of people that I've ever met. And I believe we needed just a resource to say it's okay to work in this industry to love what you do, and to celebrate that and be proud of it.
Christopher Lacy: One of the taglines for the book is, celebrating your accidental career in retail. And what many of us don't know, and what I didn't know until I read the book, which is extremely interesting, is you actually have it in, I will say, in your DNA, in your family DNA. Your father was a toy salesman.
Ron Thurston: Yup. Like a traveling toy salesman, which was very funny.
Christopher Lacy: I want to know what was that like for you as a kid? I mean, you had access to every toy.
Ron Thurston: We did have access. I have two younger brothers and we're all very close in age and I do remember him being like gone quite a bit, but he would always come home with like an extra suitcase full of all the toys. You know, this is sixties, seventies. We didn't have video games, we had toys. And so we always had the latest and the greatest of all of it, that was definitely a fun part of growing up.
Christopher Lacy: You talk about your grandfather a bit in the book as well and how they kind of influenced your outlook on the retail industry. I think as you started to get into it, it kind of, things that they did influenced you. And can you talk about like how that happened? What they did influenced you as a leader in retail?
Ron Thurston: So, I believe when I was on last time I also spoke about my grandfather and growing up in Tahoe. But his leadership style was one that I really admired and kind of watched him in action as I was growing up. And I knew that it was a leadership style that was, actually I didn't know at the time, that was not common. And so when I think about the level of empathy and curiosity and focus, which I talk about in the book. Like they were also the pillars of just great leadership in any industry and that he was like highly empathetic always curious about what was going on with the people on, he owned a construction company, on the job site. Of course, his family. But the idea of, you can actually lead a large organization and still be very empathetic and curious and lead in a way that's from your heart and put people first and puts kind of this human touch at the center of everything that you do. And it influenced me in such a significant way that I've always been that kind of driver of culture, that driver of people, recognizing that talent, finding ways to help get people where they need to go. It's definitely in my DNA, but it's also something I'd like to just emulate and teach now as a leader myself.
Christopher Lacy: My favorite chapter of the book is when you're discussing leadership and those characteristics of it.
And I think when I read it. There's something about it that, it was like, I felt even more connected to you. And I think one of the reasons you and I have connected well is because we, they always say like attracts like. And so people who work in similar ways just connect and your leadership style and my leadership style are so similar. I think to a point that we met through a mutual friend who was like, I can't believe the two of you haven't met, you guys are so much alike.
There is a part of your book, in the leadership section, you say leadership is when you tell people what you stand for. And I love that so much because when I think of my own leadership style, I set the expectation, everyone knew what the expectation was and because they knew what that expectation was, I feel like I then could layer in my empathy and that we would get to the goal. And it wasn't about being perfect. It was about striving for excellence.
And what I want to ask you is, what do you kind of think right now, you know, as leaders, during critical times, what is it we really have to try to lean into right now in the retail atmosphere? In your stores right now, you're trying to make your numbers, your team is stressed, you're stressed, your customers are also stressed about things. What could you say to somebody right now that's like the one pillar I need you to really focus on right now is this?
Ron Thurston: I would go back again to empathy. I think that's where it starts and where it ends . Having the ability to ask questions and understand where someone's at today. And not tomorrow and not this week. Where are you today? How are you feeling? Tell me what you're enjoying. You're good? What can I help you with? Or you're not good. Let me help you. Let me find resources for you. Or just to say, you know what I understand. I understand that your customer's not here. I understand you have to rebuild your entire business. Let me help you get the right product. Let me help you with some marketing ideas, events, whatever we need to do to help get our business back on track.
It's my responsibility to understand that through real empathy and curiosity and asking those questions, because we're all learning this kind of paradigm shift of how we do business together and no one has the answer for it. And the only way that we can learn it is to be in it and to be asking questions.
And I think the idea of, how do we continue to really focus on this part of how we are leading that's very human and very kind of people first, is the only way that we will continue to get our business back on track.
Christopher Lacy: I love that you said people first. Because we work in an industry that is always about product, selling product. And I had just mentioned this the other day, that when I was looking at training and development programs in the luxury space, it always focused on product. And something I had wanted to do was focus it on people, resilience, emotional intelligence. And you have a point in your book where you say, develop the skills you need to connect with anyone you meet. And I think this is so important. If you could just elaborate on that a bit for our listeners.
Ron Thurston: Yeah, this point for me is what sets really great retail. I don't even differentiate sales from stock to leadership, senior leadership. I don't differentiate this point, because the entire reason we exist in our business is to connect. And our ability to do that with anyone is what differentiates those people who will feel successful, feel proud, feel engaged, and really do their best work because you've learned how to connect with anyone.
And I'll give you an example because part of my other responsibility is on the board of directors of Goodwill here in New York and New Jersey. I lead the committee on retail. And so, I visit Goodwill stores, like I do my own stores. And I go on a store visit and I meet the teams and I meet the leaders and, you know, the average transaction in a Goodwill store is $7. And that's with like a 3.0 UPT. Like that's how inexpensive the product is. But the ability for that leadership team in a Goodwill store in New York to connect with a client who really only has a dollar to spend on something versus my business where the average transaction is $600-$700 and the client is likely very different, the ability to connect with both of them equally and find common ground, ask great questions and really be human, today is I think the most important skill we can all possess.
Christopher Lacy: That skill is the most important skill. And then I think about emotional intelligence. And when I think about the retail industry and to your point of, you know, you're, at a party and you say I'm in retail and I know I've done it. The following question it would always be, what do you do? You say, Oh, I work for, and you say whatever brand. And then the person would follow up and they kind of be like, Oh, so you're working in corporate and you would hesitantly kind of say, you know, no, I work in the store. And now like you I'm like, I love saying I worked in the store because there's this level of emotional intelligence I think that retail people have to have that most other industries don't connect into. Right? And there's a resilience with that. And I want to ask you, you know, when you think about what retail has taught you about yourself and the world, how did it help you develop your EQ levels?
Ron Thurston: I think the EQ for me comes from the complexity of our business and understanding what you are actually really good at. And so when I think about everything that happens in our environment from visual merchandising, store operations, loss prevention, just general customer experience, HR related things that are more important today than ever. When I think about the complexity of the business and then the emotional intelligence it takes to manage all of that and the teams around you, that for me is where it really differentiates retail from other industries. Because if I work in a corporate environment, I have one specific skill. Maybe it's a skill I studied in college, maybe it's not, but there's really one kind of circle of influence that you have is usually your team, who's doing a similar job reporting to a head of a department that leads that similar job and you drop into a store and every day is different, every day something else is going to happen. The team needs something else, the customer needs something else, the product, the variety of situations arise, and the most emotionally intelligent people can take all of that in make good decisions and lead their team in a very specific direction that helps them do their best work.
And that is a very unique skill that part of just my motivation for this book was recognize the fact that that's what you do so well. And another thing to just be proud of. And I don't think that it's celebrated enough.
Christopher Lacy: Yeah, I used to think about the fact that, you know, you have people in a store and you're trying to give great service. The resilience you have to have, I don't know if most people recognize this, the resilience you have to have as a frontline employee, after someone is yelling at you about something that you had absolutely no control over. You have to fix that but then in a beat, you have to turn to the next person and give a smile. And that-
Ron Thurston: So true.
Christopher Lacy: It's crazy. I don't know that many people understand, like that's a crazy, you get home at the end of the day and you're like, I don't want anybody to talk to me. And if you're dating someone, they're like, why don't you want to talk to me? Like you don't understand what I went through today.
Ron Thurston: It's so true.
I've told this story before, but I'll share this. I joined Apple, my first week with them was the launch of iPhone two. And those years were the years you had to wait in line to buy a phone either if you really wanted to get it on the first day, you were there for three days, camped in front of the store. And I'll never forget. And we used to put black velvet curtains up in the front of the store so you couldn't see inside while we put out this magic new iPhone device. And I remember peeking through the black curtains on launch day and there were literally like a thousand people waiting in line at eight o'clock in the morning. And like that, I said, okay, like, this is what's going to happen. I was there until midnight, probably until we sold out of our last phone.
And I spent my entire day walking that line, showing people the phone, giving them snacks, finding someone to like hold their place in lunch, they go to the bathroom, like all of that. There's a level of intensity that needs to happen in service that also happens in restaurants and hotels and any kind of service industry. But retail is those special moments in time where, you're right, trust me I got screamed at that day. I got complimented that day. You know, we're just trying to do our best. And those are really those special moments I think you'll never forget.
Christopher Lacy: And when we talk about special moments and those highs and lows of retail, and we think about now, over the last few years and you touch on this in the book. And I remember it so well, I think it's like page six. It's at the very beginning you bring this up. And you talk about the importance of brick and mortar stores and you know, how people, speak to e-commerce. How e-commerce has its place, but the actual store experience has a bigger place. And I'd love for you to talk about that cause you and I've talked about this. I think I've talked about this with other guests on the show, when people are like brick and mortars is dying and now, we're in COVID and so then online sales went up. But will we ever get to a point where people are standing in line waiting for product again? No, but I do believe there's the desire for people to be in a store. And I'd love for you to touch on why the store experience is going to continue to be so important.
Ron Thurston: So, what I mentioned kind of just to set the stage in the book is the fact that the news very much takes over the growth in eCommerce. And that's very true 30%, 40% above last year projected for this year of e-commerce and a decline in brick and mortar. And that is all very true. But what the news often doesn't articulate well, is that as e-commerce grows, which was always the smallest percent of the business, to approximately estimated 15% of all commerce this year from 12, which would be up 30, is still leaves 85% of all commerce done in brick and mortar.
And they're estimating that will grow by about a percentage point every year for the next few years. Meaning by 2024 e-commerce is estimated to be 18% of all revenue generated. 82% in brick and mortar. And so, the news definitely skews it of no one's shopping in stores anymore, everyone's shopping online. Which is also what people still tell me in social interactions. Oh, I'm sure your business is terrible, I hear everyone's shopping online now. I'm like that's not actually true. And retail falls into so many different categories: grocery, pharmacy, the home furnishings like luxury. It touches everyone in the world. It touches every part of our life. To not forget that the importance and relevance of brick and mortar and the experience you have with the brand doesn't happen on the website, it happens in the store. And we have this year needed to find ways to engage both channels. At the same time, to find things like chat on your website, which is what we're doing at Intermix to create a similar store experience within in-store sales team. Or you have things like buy online pickup in store and curbside.
All of this is to engage, encourage an omni customer. And you're engaging the client in a different way. But ultimately, it's still a retail business and the best expression and the best experience of any brand is going to be the store. And that trend is often not as spoken about in the press. But I think for all of us that work in it, that's the voice we need to say of like, yes, they're definitely shopping online more, but they really want to come back when they feel safe, of course. And when they feel ready to do this. And it might be in a different store than they originally shopped in because they moved. That's okay, too.
I think it's approaching the relevance of this business from a slightly different lens then you and I spoke about six months ago.
Christopher Lacy: Yeah. you know, it's funny, I think about our conversation back then and one of the questions I had asked you was, how are you able to keep your store employees motivated through this time? And I mean, at this point, you were dealing with, were you guys going to have to furlough and how are we going to clientele in this space? What did this look like? And that took a certain skillset. Cause you're managing to a crisis situation that you never have before, and really trying to map out a way. And you and I discussed the fact that you don't even know how to create a strategy because the information was so crazy. You couldn't even strategize.
Ron Thurston: Exactly. Exactly. Cause we didn't know what tomorrow was going to bring.
Christopher Lacy: At all. And now here we are, you know, things are opening up again. And my question to you is what does the strategy look like for you now as you talk to your teams, keeping them motivated, when it comes to things like clienteling and really driving people back into the store and it feeling safe? How is your strategy working out around that? What was it, and how receptive has your team been?
Ron Thurston: So, they're very receptive to ideas that can support their business. But I would say, what has changed is the fact that there's no longer one size fits all in every city in this country, because the revenue that's being generated in certain cities is escalated; and the revenue generated in other cities is down significantly. And so how you clientele in, kind of an outer market i.e like here in the Northeast, the client is definitely spending more time in Hamptons and Greenwich, kind of outside city markets still. In Northern California, San Francisco, similarly there in Marin, and our store in the city is down similar to a New York store.
So, this kind of migration of our business outward has created a need for clienteling that's actually very healthy. And probably just like it always was. Reaching out, getting them in the store, having appointments, doing consignments, that's all still relevant. But it's different if you're in the middle of Manhattan or downtown San Francisco. That is a much tougher clienteling business, and not every client wants a consignment. There's definitely a lack of tourism that generated a lot of business in New York. And so, every store has to find that unique approach that works for their particular business and their particular client. And I do think prior to this, we approach clienteling with like one size fits all. And today that's not at all the case. I have 32 stores and 32 versions of what good clienteling is.
And I do think that that's an industry trend that has come of this, of like, what does that particular team need? What's happening in that particular city? What's going on with that client from a product perspective? What does that particular city need that maybe they didn't need before? It's actually even more complex today than it used to be.
Christopher Lacy: And this is what's so important and I'm glad you brought up this idea of this one size fits all approach. And I think that's truly personalization. We hear a lot where people are like personalized service, personalized service, but personalized service isn't these little kitschy things that you do, graffitiing handbags or monogramming things. It really is about giving the community of the customers that are in that space, what they collectively need to make it easier for them, right? And being a nimble enough organization to go "Look, this isn't what was needed before. The store is telling us this is what's needed. We need to react." And I wanted to ask you about reacting quickly to business changes. A lot of times companies take their time. The importance of reacting quickly for you right now, how are you kind of getting the fire underneath the people you need to get it under to support your stores? You know, how is that working for you?
Ron Thurston: Yeah, I think it requires a level of intensity and transparency would be the words I would use. And transparency is really where I'm leaning in from a store perspective. Because it's, going back to empathy and as I've observed it, as I'm in stores, the client also is not behaving the same way. And so, understanding the store perspective of what's happening, and kind of creating a level of transparency of what's actually happening and then building that fire under everybody else to pivot and do things differently. And that's constant communication. I've been doing a lot of just virtual store visits on Zoom. I'm bringing my entire corporate team together with myself and we've been visiting stores all over the country. This is probably the year I've been on a plane the least in the last 20 years. I'd love to travel and visit stores and spend time in stores. And so, if I have to do that virtually, that's what I'm going to do. Because it's still important that they see us, hear us, feel our presence, feel our support, and to not just be left out there without a lot of traffic and without a lot of tools, and that support and that fire speed that we have to act today. It's never been more important. But it's also important to say, you know what, that didn't work and let's try something different because none of us have the answer of what tomorrow looks like, how we're going to do business, kind of what's happening in the social environment. They all have impacts on our business and we have to be able to react quickly.
Christopher Lacy: Ron, what are you most proud of in your career?
Ron Thurston: Oh gosh. There are so many people that I've worked with along the way who do give me a lot of nice credit and compliments, and I'm really proud of that. But I'm proud to have impacted an industry and maybe had different voice for people that I've never met. And that can say, someone really like gets me, someone understands, what happens here. The voice that is in the book, or sometimes they hear me on in forums like this, that there's someone that really appreciates them. And I'm proud to be that person. And that there isn't a resource for the store teams. I didn't want to write a book about the future of retail. I didn't want to write a book about the latest technology, or I didn't want to write a book about the industry because if I work in a store, I actually can't change the industry. But I can change my own experience and I can change my own perception and like paradigm of what I do for a living. And I'm proud that in some ways, the first person who has said it's okay to love working in retail.
Christopher Lacy: I have this pleasure to know you and I mean that sincerely. Whenever I say your name, the automatic response is, "Oh my gosh, I love Ron." And I know why, because there's a genuine nature to you. You really are one of the people that I'm like, he absolutely not just loves what he does in retail, but absolutely loves the people that are in it. And I think that comes through so well in this book. I'm so happy you wrote it. I know I needed it. I'm sure many other people will need it as well. And that being said, soon to come, we'll be doing a giveaway of your book, Retail Pride, to one of our listeners. And we're really excited about doing that.
Ron Thurston: Amazing.
Christopher Lacy: You're welcome. So, there's more information to come on that, listeners.
Ron Thurston: Thank you.
I wanted to say one thing about the cover, because it's not always articulated very well in all the descriptions of it. So, I intentionally had the book come in, hardcover, paperback, ebook and I'll tell you why, because if you look at the image of just the cover, you'll see all these bright colors and it looks like there's shooting off from the center and it's very beautiful. But I intentionally did a hardcover book. And when you open it up front to back, it's, it's an art piece that I had translated into the cover. And that there's actually no text on the back of the book. There's no description of it or anything. It's all done on the inside, because I wanted the book to be able to sit top up, bottom up, backside, and that it was an art piece and it was an expression. Because I really do think of retail as art. What we do is art and that retail is the ultimate expression of that. And that the book cover should feel that way. I loved the idea of all these bright colors coming together, celebrate all the different people that work here. All are welcome to work in retail, no matter gender, race, how you identify, all are welcome. And that's part of all these colors coming together. So, there was a lot of thought that I put into like why the cover looks like it is.
Christopher Lacy: That's amazing.
Ron, can you tell our listeners how can they connect with you? Where can they get the book? All that good stuff.
Ron Thurston: I'd love to. You go to retailpride.com, you can sign up for additional information of things I'm going to do in the future. And then there's a link on there to the Amazon site. I also have a separate website built for bulk purchases through the publisher. So, 10 copies, 20 copies, 50 copies that are discounted because I also feel like this is a great holiday gift that district managers or people will want to buy for their teams. And you can do that at a discount on a separate site that's linked on a retailpride.com.
Christopher Lacy: Ron, thank you so much. You have created a book for all, celebrating all. Everyone go out and get it, get it for your teams. It's an amazing read.
Ron Thurston, good luck with everything, with anything you do in your future. And we can't wait to have you back on Retail Revolution podcast again.
Ron Thurston: Thank you so much, Christopher. Anytime, anytime. It's my pleasure.
Christopher Lacy: You take care.
Ron Thurston: Thank you. You too.
Joshua Williams: Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible.
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