Transcript - Sass Brown
Season 4, Episode 11
Conversation with Sass Brown
Joshua Williams: [00:00:00] Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in depth conversations with guest experts in omni-channel retailing with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current sociopolitical issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail, as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future.
Visit RetailRevolutionPodcast.com for more information, including full transcripts. And follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at RetailRevolutionPodcast. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are assistant professors in the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design.
Christopher Lacy: [00:00:46] Sass Brown is the founding Dean of the Dubai Institute of Design and Innovation. Prior to joining DIDI, Sass was the interim Dean of the Fashion Institute of Technology, School of Art and Design in New York. She is a graduate of FIT's Global Fashion Management master's program; holds her bachelor's degree in Fashion Design from Ravensbourne College of Art and Design in the UK, and recently completed her PhD at Manchester Metropolitan University.
As a researcher, writer and educator Brown's area of expertise is ethical fashion in all its forms from slow design and heritage craft skills to recycling, reuse, and alternative business models. Her publications include the books, Eco Fashion, and ReFashioned for British publishers, Lawrence King. Sass Brown is a true revolutionary who has a mission to change the design principles around sustainable fashion and how consumers engage with sustainable products.
Today, Sass and I discuss the quality, functionality and the value proposition of eco-friendly fashion. I'm Christopher Lacy, and this is Retail Revolution podcast.
Hello Sass, how are you today?
Sass Brown: [00:02:11] Hi, I'm good. It's such a pleasure to speak to you.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:14] I'm very excited to speak to you. You've had a very busy, few months, Congratulations on your PhD.
Sass Brown: [00:02:22] Thank you. I'm still waiting for the defense. So, I've got to go through that bun bit yet, but it's all submitted and all in. So, just waiting for the examiners now.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:31] Fantastic. So, you get to kind of breathe for a little bit.
Sass Brown: [00:02:35] A little bit, yes.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:37] Yeah. So, Sass I'd love for you to tell our listeners briefly about your career and what you do, because it is quite extensive what you've been able to do. And I know I talked a little bit about in your intro, what you've done, but did you know, that's what you were going to be doing?
Sass Brown: [00:02:52] Oh God, no, it's been one of those sorts of journeys of synchronicity, I guess, just things that happened along the way, and I've been fortunate enough or perhaps naive enough to just jump and take chances. So, I've always felt a bit like what I do is close my eyes, jump and hope for the best. A lot of the things that I've done in retrospect, I've thought, what the heck was I thinking? But they've worked out. So, it I seem to naturally take advantage I think of just opportunities that I've had. It's also a matter of certain life choices: choosing to be single has, has allowed me to do a lot of things that are much more complicated if you've got families or partners or things like that. So, it has actually enabled a lot of my globe-trotting and travel and job opportunities. So yeah, I've been through a bit.
So, let me see I'm in London now. I moved back here just a couple of months ago and just started a new position at Kingston University where I am in charge of writing a new master's on sustainable fashion. I'm really excited about that.
I just completed my PhD, so that took two years out of my usual work. So, I've been teaching the odd sort of class for a number of universities, London College of Fashion, Kingston, Manchester, Metropolitan, still teaching at FIT occasionally. Politechnico di Milano in Milan. So, various things here and there. But effectively pretty much full time on my PhD.
Prior to that, as you said, I was founding Dean at DIDI, Dubai Institute of Design and Innovation. And that was just an incredible opportunity. One of those sort of once-in-a-lifetime chances where I was given the opportunity to be the founding Dean of a university, which is a special opportunity to be the first Dean of a new institution.
And it's a particularly special university in as much as the curriculum is a collaboration between Parsons and MIT in Boston. And so, it's a cross disciplinary design degree, not discipline specific, it's across four different disciplines. And I had both the pleasure and the stress of seeing them through initial accreditation almost single-handedly because it was prior to hiring all of the people you would normally have in place to help you get through accreditations, such as registrars and librarians and faculty and...
Christopher Lacy: [00:05:17] All, all of those fun things.
Sass Brown: [00:05:19] That was me, me and me for the most part, which was a tad stressful, but the real joy was hiring my first faculty and building an inclusive culture of sharing and of development that was just really unparalleled. And I'm so grateful for that opportunity. It was really special.
Christopher Lacy: [00:05:39] So in the spirit of creativity and creating a community, you began EcoFashionTalk. And this was a forum to really come together as industry leaders and participants and educators and researchers to have conversations around what an eco-friendly design principle looks like just from all sustainable perspectives. Now that you think about where we are today, from where you were, when you started this. How important is it today for us to continue these conversations and how it will look out at the future? Because so much has changed. I mean, sustainability is a word that's used quite a bit. People are becoming more aware. So, where is the, the eco fashion talks place now?
Sass Brown: [00:06:30] Well, EcoFashion itself is a website; it's been archived for probably about three years when I moved to Dubai. And actually, I guess it's actually four years now. I sort of shelved it, cause it just wasn't possible to continue the amount of time and dedication it required to upkeep a website while being founding Dean; just didn't happen. So, I archived it that said I'm hoping to re animate it, although not in its previous form. But it was, it was a really important thing for me to establish. And I did it, I think it was back in 2013 now, because there just weren't enough people talking about the beauty and the creativity of ethical fashion. They were talking about crunchy granola, beige t-shirts, and that was about it. They were talking about the ethics, not to the aesthetics of the clothing. And I knew what incredible work that was being done around the world. So, my first book was about that and the website was timed simultaneously with the publishing of my first book to celebrate artisanship, craftmanship. new business models, anything and everything that effectively impacted the mainstream fashion system, but from a more sustainable perspective. And so, I eventually archived it, one because yes, I took on a position that was all consuming, but also because I felt that we got to a stage where there were a lot of other people out there talking about sustainable fashion, ethical fashion.
When I started out, there was only a few. So, I also felt there was enough conversation going on. That said, I think we've now come to a stage where it's so common, the terms like sustainability and circularity are so grossly misunderstood and misused now that I think the really is a place again for going back to basics and, and restarting a website and having these conversations, because I find that that the terminology is so just misunderstood and misused. Circularity probably more than any other word, probably because it's just such a buzzword. And that's what happened with the term sustainability as well. Sustainable fashion, like every brand is sustainable because they buy carbon offsets or something.
There's a real loss of the complexity and the diversity and the real meaning of the issue.
Christopher Lacy: [00:08:46] I love that you bring up circularity and the overuse of the term circularity. I've I think that about, sustainability, I think that now, when we talk about pivot, like, do people really understand what it means and, and the aspects of it? Really down to what it is? And I, I would love to hear from you just, a little bit, what is it, when someone says circularity, what does it mean to you, more so than what it really means to other people who are using it and, and, there are times where you hear something and you're like, but if you really understood what that meant, this is what we would be doing instead.
Sass Brown: [00:09:18] Yeah, this is the challenge, so many things have been grouped under the heading of circularity. I mean, in its truest and proper sense, we're talking about a system that joins the two ends of a linear economy, from production or extraction through to end of product; connects the two ends and makes an infinite loop. But the problem is people have started using it for all sorts of other initiatives. They say it's a circular brand if it's extending the life of a garment by one lifetime. That's not circularity, that's recycling or upcycling. It's, it's a single edition of a lifetime, not an ad infinitum.
The, the true sense of circularity is that it is in a continuous circular loop or it transitions into a secondary loop that is also infinite. So, for example, something that is naturally produced and biodegradable and can go into a bio loop, that you can consider a proper circular loop, but people use it for all sorts of things. Even if you look at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, who's really one of the main experts in this field, under circularity initiatives, they have all sorts of things listed there. Reduction of chemicals use, reduction of waste, that's not circularity. Those are sustainable initiatives and they're good and that valuable, but that's not circularity.
So, there's been a real sort of misuse and abuse of the terminology to try and be all incorporating an all encapsulating, so that any number of brands can say that they're doing circular initiatives. Well, you're not really, you're working towards a circular economy, but there is a long way away from it yet.
Christopher Lacy: [00:11:04] Do you think that the misuse of words and what their impact is within an economy within a production cycle is almost detrimental to the movement of where we need to be for sustainable fashion efforts and, and what it really means? For you and I, we, we can look at the words and we, we understand where it's coming from, but if you're the average consumer, you're making a choice. And this has existed in marketing and advertising for years. Like a word gets used, whatever, then people think, fat-free, isn't really, fat-free? Sugar-free is it really sugar-free? Is this detrimental really to the effort we're trying to make in fashion?
Sass Brown: [00:11:48] Absolutely. You're talking about a watering down of the terminology. You're talking about making it much easier and more accessible than it really is. I mean, sustainable fashion, ethical fashion circular fashion is a real challenge. There is no nirvana at this stage, there is no perfectly sustainable supply chain or product. It doesn't exist. We're working towards it and hopefully always getting better. So, the watering down of the terminology makes everything sound like it's okay. Or, it's sustainable product because we've made it from organic cotton or because it's zero waste. Well, what about the carbon footprint? What about people in your supply chain? What about end of life considerations? There’re so many multiplicities to producing and consuming ethically and sustainably. And doing one of those things does not make it sustainable or circular.
Christopher Lacy: [00:12:51] I want to talk to you about when we look at every single aspect of our supply chain, where we look at what we're doing with it, I actually want to go back to really your roots of the design principle behind what we're doing. And really, how can designers change their design principles or methods to consider developing more eco-friendly collections and sustainable collections?
Because at one end it to your point, this is not an easy solution, but a lot of times it's put out there as like, yes, we did this and now we've solved it. There's a design principle that goes along with this, not just the manufacturing part of it. And I'd love for you to kind of talk just a little bit about what kind of needs to be at the core of those design principles and methods.
Sass Brown: [00:13:39] Honestly, I mean the system of fashion is a dinosaur. It's no longer fit for purpose and needs to be entirely broken down. I think the single most important thing that anyone can do in any business, whether they're a designer or any of other position is to question everything and challenge the assumptions.
I know, I'm often this person that gets wheeled into various classes so that a program can do the tick box exercise of saying, yep, we've addressed sustainability. We had Sass come and give a lecture. And I'll give that lecture in the middle of a supply chain class, which the rest of the entirety of their term is about how do you shave off time and money off your supply chain. And then they wheel me, and I do my one lecture on sustainability. "Yep. We've addressed it." And so, it doesn't work that way, right?
Christopher Lacy: [00:14:29] Which, which pretty much is how business I feel is done every single day in the fashion industry.
Sass Brown: [00:14:35] Absolutely. And when I teach design, I really talk about the breaking down and the questioning and the revaluing of the entirety of the system. Because we cannot follow this system that was developed for a time that we don't no longer exist. Think of all of the challenges we have in the mainstream system. As a designer, first of all, you're taught that there's a single ideal of beauty, which is very exclusive. It favors a Western body type. It favors Western beauty standards. It's a product of colonization and imperialism and racism, quite honestly. I call it design colonialism. And even from the design stage, you're taught as designers to illustrate in this body that really doesn't exist on any one, but runway models, size zero, five for eight and taller. When the reality in the UK or the U S is an average size 16, five foot four. So, who are we designing for from the beginning of that process? And why are we valuing the standard of beauty that is almost unattainable by 99.9% of the female population and directly excludes particular ethnicities and body types. And from there we go on and we develop samples in that size. We're told that to be a success you have to show at trade shows, you have to wholesale, you have to get key retail accounts. You have to deliver your summer collection in January. You have to do multiple collections a year. You have to deliver your winter collection in July. You have to take back product when it doesn't sell in the store. All of these things are, it's a broken system that simply doesn't serve us any longer. And yet we continue to teach this. And we continue to function that way for the most part within the industry. And there are these little add-ons like, sticking plaster solutions. Oh, well, if we just change one of our materials or if we stop buying carbon offsets then we're doing something. And we're not. That's a sticking plaster resolution, we need to break the entire system. We need to question every single stage of why we do something. What is the meaning behind it? And how do we do it differently? And how do we do it better?
Christopher Lacy: [00:16:49] This is a big question to kind of ask you on the spot, but you point out so many things that in the industry, I think we've talked about, quite a bit in the industry academic side. And, and there is that talk happening slowly on the actual fashion production, the retail side. For you, if you were to look at business models that are happening, and it is, it's literally, like you can't even fix the current process. It's more like you just have to dismantle it and then rebuild anew. But if you, if you're looking out at the landscape as you, is there a business model that you're like, if we did something with this business model we could get to where we need to be? Or are you kind of saying there's nothing out there. Like there's, there's nothing I'm left feeling good about.
Sass Brown: [00:17:34] No, I'm actually neither of those. I'm somewhere, I'm a third proposition, which is, I think there's tons of fantastic work happening out there. And I think one of our biggest problems has been that we subscribed in the West to a single system that was supposed to fit everyone. And it doesn't, and it's no longer fit for purpose. So, I think there is a ton of different initiatives out there, whether it's working with artisans, whether it's fair trade with retains upcycling or zero waste design, or whether it's recycling. There are fantastic operational models, business models, design solutions. And I think that's really what it's about. It's about a multitude of responses, not a single one anymore.
Christopher Lacy: [00:18:17] In business terms we would say it's diversifying. And we have lived in this mindset of, we will do this approach and then we'll make this approach the approach that works for everything. And maybe the whole idea of dismantling means collaborating on different types of business models so that we can figure it out and really make it work. I do see the light at the end of the tunnel a little bit. I think awareness always helps. And now you have more consumers that are aware. And so, they're doing their very best to make conscious decisions as consumers. And you do have leaders who are trying to be conscious leaders.
Somewhere in all of this, and I talk to probably everyone about this. I think anyone who's probably been listening to the podcast this long is probably like we know what he's about to ask. I think a lot about socioeconomic situations. And, it's funny, we talk about like people who shop at Goodwill and how you should buy clothes that have been used before instead of buying new. And I think about it, I'm like there are people who've had to do that their whole life. Like they're not doing this out of fun and out of a conscious thing of consumerism. They're doing this because the living wage is very low, and this is their option. This, this is shopping for them. So why does it seem to me, it seems as though sustainability efforts in companies that are around that, and eco-friendly fashion are priced at such a way that we negate this group, this population of people that are consumers, that we should be targeting to make it accessible to them. Why is it so difficult?
Sass Brown: [00:19:54] Well there are real challenges here, and yes, we're talking about a system that's, particularly sustainable fashion, that's become quite elitist. I mean, when it first started, we talked about being crunchy and granola, and now we talk about it being so elitist because of the higher price point.
And inevitably there is a higher price point. If you're paying people, fairly, for the labor that they undertake. If you are taking care, not to pollute your environment. And inevitably those things cost an awful lot more. I mean, the mainstream fashion system, particularly in fast fashion or cheap clothing, we talk about the hidden price tag. The price tag of the people and the planet for the production of that cheap piece of clothing. You're not paying for it at the till, but the environment's paying or with the pollution that happened through the wet processing of the textiles, or the people that produced it, are paying for the cost of their labor, the under payment of their labor. So inevitably, if you were doing those things properly, and fairly, it is more expensive. But yes, that is highly problematic. Because, you're talking about the inaccessibility of a huge echelon of communities. And that's case in many industries. Look at the inequities that have happened through the pandemic and lockdown. Okay. Sounds great. We all put all of our classes online and make them a hundred percent digitally accessible. What about people who don't have internet at home or don't have a fancy laptop? Or don't have access? All of these solutions quite often exclude people who are already struggling to begin with. And that is a challenge with sustainable fashion. And part of that, a big part of the problem that we have is what has happened over the last number of decades of the de-valuing of clothing. A hundred years ago, we spent 50% of our income on keeping a roof over our head and our clothing. Now we spend a fifth. Yet at the same time, in the last 20 years alone, our consumption has gone up by 400%. So, what does that tell you about how we have devalued clothing and how disposable it has become? And that's something that happens naturally. If it doesn't cost you anymore to buy a cheap top in the high street than it does to buy your latte at Starbucks or your pizza, take out, you're going to treat it as disposably as fact. Whereas if we go back even just to my mother's generation, who would have to spend three months wages on a winter coat that would have to last her at least 10 years. That was the value of clothing. And my mother wasn't rich, hence why it took her three months wages to buy her a coat, but that was considered normal. That was the value of the labor and the materials that went into the production of that thing. And that's no longer considered the case. So, we've gone through a huge cultural shift of clothing being considered disposable. And that has been at the cost of the people in the supply chain and the environmental cost.
Christopher Lacy: [00:22:55] I think you described all of that perfectly. And it made me think of, because of all of that, I would have liked to have seen more fashion companies be vocal about the need for the raising of minimum wage in the United States, for example. And, and I just think many companies need to be more vocal about that. And I probably think about it in too much of a simplistic term where I know that if I were a CEO of a company, my goal would be, I want people to have money to buy my product. So, it makes sense for more people to be able to make more money so that they have a disposable income to buy my product. I'm always like, am I thinking about this in too simple of terms? And I like, am I missing it? Cause I know I've been in business for like 20 some odd years, but am I being ridiculous? And just the thought I'd want to know from you is, why do you think the fashion industry has been so quiet when it comes to administrative things such as wage increases and things that impact the consumer? They were very vocal when it came to tariffs that were being placed depending upon the categories; and we know why. But why is there that, that disconnect?
Sass Brown: [00:24:15] I think labor is really been lagging behind in sustainability initiatives with brands. They focus predominantly on environmental issues and sustainability in general tends to be more thought of, or more connected with environmental issues than it does about labor or human issues. That's in part why I don't tend to use the term very much anymore. I tend to talk about ethical fashion because it, by default it's more encompassing. So, I think first of all, brands have been focusing on the environmental impacts of their clothing, probably because you've got some important bodies that have been pushing that agenda, such as Greenpeace, et cetera, who've done, huge number of studies and reports on the environmental damage through textile wet processing, the whole series of detox reports and the consistent updates. Or PETA, for example, with animal rights, the angora video that went viral and caused Marks & Spencer's and H&M and everyone else to divest from angora products.
So, I think that the focus has been elsewhere predominantly and there is a huge discrepancy in minimum to living wage all around the world. And the tendency, when we're talking about garment manufacturing is people tend to focus on that disparity in developing countries. So, when we're talking about Bangladesh or China or Cambodia, for example, and there are lots of charts that show the disparity between what it would cost to actually earn a living wage, doing a regular nine to five job, working in the garment industry, as opposed to what people are being paid within those countries.
But as you say, I defy anybody in New York, Tokyo, London, or any other major developed country to live on a minimum wage too. It's absolutely impossible. It's not an East versus a West problem. But yeah, it's a hugely problematic and yes, they would, there would be more disposable income for sure.
Christopher Lacy: [00:26:12] Exactly. So, I want to, I want to ask you about if you have any current projects that are on the horizon for you, you're starting a new chapter. You're at the end of the PhD. You're essentially working in educating many, many new leaders coming into the space.
So, what's, what's next for you?
Sass Brown: [00:26:31] Well, I've actually got to reignite the website. Having just completed the PhD, I want to use that research to develop a, a toolbox, a guide book or digital guide to how to work ethically with artisans. Textile artisans have always been a big passion of mine. I've done a certain amount of field work working with women's cooperatives and other creative industries in the developing world. And I have such a passion for traditional textiles. And I think it's one of the greatest sadnesses, that many of these traditions are being lost, have already been lost.
And you have, so many instances of cultural appropriation where instead of culturally appropriating, the brand could have actually have worked with the artisans...
Christopher Lacy: [00:27:17] Right.
Sass Brown: [00:27:17] ...to produce the work to begin with. And help sustain those traditions and help sustain those communities of those cultures and those material cultures that are struggling to survive. So, I want to develop a website that is effectively a bit like a Prince's Trust, only specific for fashion and specific to working with craftsmanship and artisanship, and how to work ethically with that, because I know so many emerging designers that would love to work with artisans. They've no idea how to contact, Massai beaders, or Guatemalan hand weavers. And when they do they default to this system of fashion and think that they can simply be inserted into a supply chain. And they can not, and they absolutely must not.
So, it's a sort of guide if you like that prompts all sorts of research and questions as to , what do you know about this and how do you find out; how do you contact? So it's quite involved. But I'm hoping to digitize it and make it open source, because most of the platforms that do have guides for this are at a fairly high cost or have a very limited ability to reach many small designers.
For example, the Ethical Fashion Initiative, a flagship program with the UN. A fantastic program, but limited in their ability to reach a multitude of designers who would love to work with them. But their capacity is not such that they can do that. So, it would give individual small-scale designers access to that kind of information that could guide them to working with artisans.
So, then alongside that on the website, instead of just featuring sort of ethical fashion, writ large, I just want to feature artisans and crafts people around the world that are doing just incredible work edited very much more in depth perhaps than EcoFashionTalk was. So, fewer people being featured, but with a lot more detail and a lot more focused specifically on traditional craftsmanship and that collaboration with fashion and accessories.
Christopher Lacy: [00:29:30] I can tell you, we will all be looking forward to seeing it and to hearing the content and, and consuming that content.
And it'll be a lot of fun.
So, it has been amazing speaking with you today, and I'm glad you were able to make the time. I feel like there's a few topics we touched on today that I want you to come back for us to go into a bit deeper, which would be a blast. But in the meantime, how can our listeners stay up to date with what you're doing?
Sass Brown: [00:30:03] Oh, that's a good question.
Having archived the website, there's sort of no specific thing. I've archived my Instagram feed. I'm incredibly active on Facebook, really easy to find. So, probably Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter, more than anything. And it's all over under Sass Brown or Clothing Ethics, which will be the name of the new website that I develop.
So, probably just through social media at the moment, but you'll find out about the new website when it's ready to be launched through those sources.
Christopher Lacy: [00:30:33] Fantastic! Well, you now officially have a new Twitter follower? I'm going to, I'm going to jump off this and follow you on Twitter. Although I never, I feel like I never tweet anything. I should probably take a lesson from you or a few people. Thank you so much for your time today. I hope you have a great rest of this spring time. And I look forward to seeing what happens next.
Terrific.
Sass Brown: [00:30:55] It was such a pleasure talking with you, Christopher. Thank you so much.
Christopher Lacy: [00:30:58] Thank you. Take care.
Sass Brown: [00:31:00] You too. Bye bye.
Joshua Williams: [00:31:05] Thank you for listening to this episode of retail revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. If you'd like to support the work we're doing, please visit our show page at retail revolution, podcast.com and click on the donate link. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell, UL and stay tuned for our next episode.
