Transcript - Samata Pattinson
Season 4, Episode 10
Conversation with Samata Pattinson
[00:00:00] Samata Pattinson: [00:00:00] Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in depth conversations with guest experts in omni-channel retailing with myriad perspectives, technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current sociopolitical issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail, as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future.
Visit retailrevolutionpodcast.com for more information, including full transcripts and follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn @retailrevolutionpodcast. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are assistant professors in the Fashion Management Graduate Program at Parsons School of Design.
Christopher Lacy: [00:00:46] Samata's career has been more than 15 years in fashion and media. From garment design and manufacturing, to magazine editing, and PR. She joined Red Carpet Green Dress initially as the campaign's contest winner [00:01:00] in 2011, before progressing to campaign director and then vice-president. Her expertise in eco design solutions and business has been called upon by sitting prime ministers and business leaders, alongside notable industry summits and platforms, including IT TV news, South by Southwest Eco, Copenhagen Fashion Summit, and the US Department of State Bureau of International Information Programs.
Now, Samata is the CEO of Red Carpet Green Dress. And today she sits with me to discuss her vision for Red Carpet Green Dress, collaborations and the evolution of conscious consumerism.
I'm Christopher Lacy. And this is Retail Revolution podcast.
Hi Samata, it's so exciting to have [00:02:00] you on the show today.
Samata Pattinson: [00:02:01] Thank you for having me and thank you for such a lovely introduction as well.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:05] Anytime. I wish I could take credit for writing it, but I did not, so.
Samata Pattinson: [00:02:11] It was beautifully delivered at least.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:14] Thank you. So, I want to give the listeners an opportunity to hear from you, what Red Carpet Green Dress is all about for those who don't know.
Samata Pattinson: [00:02:25] Sure of course. So, Red Carpet Green Dress was founded by Susie Amos Cameron and she is the wife of director, James Cameron. She's also a leading environmentalist and very passionate about sustainability and just an all ‘round bad-ass. And she was going to the Oscars with her husband for Avatar and they basically had a conversation and she said, "Look, I don't want to be on that red carpet being asked, "What am I wearing? What am I wearing?" And not have a more significant answer than just naming a brand. I want to incorporate sustainability and the messages of sustainability into what I'm [00:03:00] doing."
So, in 2009, she came up with an idea to do a global dress design competition, open to designers from all over the world and asking them to submit a sustainable sketch. And she chose the winning entry and that piece was made and she wore it to the Oscars. And it was so well received; to since then it's grown to becoming more than just Red Carpet Green Dress at the Oscars, which it is. And it's just such a phenomenal thing. But we also do global partnerships with big household names across the small independent brands. We do educational and work experience type opportunities for the young and emerging design community. So, workshops, internships, et cetera. We have our global design competition and we have a research and development division, which innovates material solutions, I would say is the best way to describe it. So, we have all of these other things that we do, and it's just grown from that moment, which is why we always say we go from moment to movement. So, that’s the most succinct introduction I [00:04:00] can give you for Red Carpet Green Dress.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:02] It was absolutely perfect.
Samata Pattinson: [00:04:04] Thank you.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:05] So, you just mentioned something in there about what you're doing that's really part of the DNA and there's a bit of collaboration and really creating communities. And Red Carpet Green Dress released textiles in collaboration with Lenzing's Tencel.
Samata Pattinson: [00:04:19] Yes, we did.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:20] Right?
Samata Pattinson: [00:04:20] Yes, you're right. In 2020.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:23] Right. So, how is that collaboration going? And has it been well received and how did that come about?
Samata Pattinson: [00:04:29] Yeah, sure. So, I would say that when I came on board in Red Carpet Green Dress, which was in 2011; I discovered it in 2010 and entered at the end of 2010 and came on board in 2011 as a winner, who transitioned into working for the company. It became really apparent really soon that textiles were just such a big part of the conversation. I mean, ultimately you can't have a fashion industry without textiles, right? Because that's one of the base materials for any garment. And clothing represents some [00:05:00] 60% of textiles used globally. So, it's a significant footprint.
And we were really struggling to find material that answered the need that we had. We wanted material that was bio-based, that wasn't synthetic, that was biodegradable and compostable, that dealt with and address some of the issues that we're facing in the industry right now. Like so much has derived from petroleum things like spandex, acrylics, synthetic fabrics. They're not biodegradable. So, unless you're incinerating them, they're not going anywhere for thousands of years. And then we have the issue of micro plastics or microfibers with some of these other solutions. And then we just kept seeing that there were just too many challenges to finding eco luxury.
And we wanted to be part of a solution that dealt with some of those issues and was really honest about it. And even like the fact that we're talking about textile pollution tax on industry polluting like some 20% to global freshwater pollution, just from the wet processing, just how we're dyeing things.
So, we started reflecting. And a [00:06:00] couple of years ago, we said, well, why don't we look at innovating our own textiles that addresses some of the issues that we're seeing. Like, we want textiles that perform in a certain way that are biodegradable, that are made with a closed loop system, et cetera, et cetera.
And Tencel was just the perfect partnership. It was a dream come true. And started in 2020, as you said, and we've innovated three textiles with them, which have different weights. But they all biodegrade or compost to become part of the environment between eight weeks to four years, depending on the material.
So, it's just been really exciting, this shift to more natural fiber solutions. So, that's how that came about, and it's just been so exciting for us to have conversations with people about materials and the importance of innovating materials, because we're relying so heavily on the same bundle of fabrics, and we can't keep going this way. It's not sustainable. It's hammering our environment. So, the fact that we've got this partner with them; it's just brilliant and I really can't quite believe we're working with them to be honest with you. So, we're all super [00:07:00] happy.
Christopher Lacy: [00:07:00] It's funny how collaborations just come about where you weren't thinking about it. Do you know what I mean? Like I doubt that Red Carpet Green Dress was thinking down the line that this would be ideal.
Samata Pattinson: [00:07:10] Absolutely.
Christopher Lacy: [00:07:11] And here we are.
Samata Pattinson: [00:07:12] You're so right, and the thing is we're partnering Tencel Luxe. And so we've innovated these selection of textiles with them. And we were just struggling. We were struggling to find materials that had the silky smoothness, because with platforms like red carpet design, you need like a liquid, like drape. You need the color vibrancy, you need the smoothness.
And Susie Amos Cameron is actually plant-based and this is a vegan solution. Cellulose is from eucalyptus wood, sustainably managed forests. So, it's got strong yarn, so it was almost, I think with life, a lot of the time we were looking at the problem and then the second we pivoted to, "well what's the solution?" it became really obvious who we should be partnering with. So, I guess the lesson is just not to focus on the problems too much.
Christopher Lacy: [00:07:57] Yeah, right. [00:08:00] And thank you everyone. We're done.
That's the best advice ever. It really is.
So, here we are, the main focus and I've talked about this a lot this season, ‘cause it's been very important to me. When we say the word sustainable, it almost means nothing now, because it's been used so much. But when we really look at all the four pillars of sustainability. And while that tackles the environmental portion, you also, very much like me, understand the intersection of environmentalism and supporting marginalized communities.
Samata Pattinson: [00:08:39] Absolutely.
Christopher Lacy: [00:08:41] And I really want you to talk about this right now because we've been very fortunate this season to speak to Jacqueline Shaw and to speak with Paul Okrofie and they're doing a lot around what's happening in Africa.
And there is something to be said for how do we make [00:09:00] sustainability work for, one, developing countries and marginalized communities?
Samata Pattinson: [00:09:04] So, it's really interesting you say that because the beginning of my journey with what sustainability is, was so product focused. I came in and design contest, right? So, it was all about how can I make this dress sustainably? So, I was thinking about materials. I was thinking about dyes, waste, all of these different things. And for such a long time, my journey towards understanding the broad definition of sustainability was having to unpack and recognize this way of understanding sustainability.
So, for me, I liken it to a pebble causing a ripple. And I think lots of people are focusing on the pebble, which is the product, the experience, the service. But ultimately, we're talking about the things that facilitate and kind of bracket that and encompass that. We're talking about, who's involved in making it; who's supplying the materials and resources? How are the garment workers being paid? How old are they? Where are they based? How much are they being looked after across to, [00:10:00] who are we making this for? Who will be choosing to promote this product? Which communities does this product or service or X, Y, Z include X, Y, Z? How are we promoting the message?
So, it becomes, so much more than a product. It becomes about the entire system and the people and the hands and the soles and the late nights and the blood, sweat, and tears, and the graft, et cetera, et cetera. And it becomes about the communities that are infected by that textile pollution in Indonesia and in Guanzhou, where they famously say, you can tell what color is in season by the color of our local rivers, where their children play.
So, once I got my head around that and understood this is all so connected and it's so much bigger than this. I then started to think about, well, how can we address these issues? Or how can we talk about these issues? And how can we support marginalized communities who aren't invisible, but don't have the same platforms.
And I think part of what we saw last year was this ground quake of a [00:11:00] complete yanking away of a foundation for many people. And part of what came with that is the need to recognize that sustainability has always been global. It's not one part of the world that teaches the other part of the world how to be sustainable.
In fact, when we talk about pioneering sustainability from the Natural Dye Movement to some of the most skilled artisans. Those are scattered around the continent. They're found in Asia, they're found in India, they're found in West Africa, they're found in Ghana. So, I think one of the big things we need to talk about when we talk about intersectional environmentalism is recognizing the shift of power and decentering this conversation from, how can the developed countries of the world, quote unquote, help the underdeveloped countries or less developed countries? Because that isn't actually a real paradigm. If you think about biodiversity, 80% of global biodiversity is not centered in the US or the UK or Europe. It's in countries like Burkina Faso, et cetera.
So, one of the ways that we try and champion this and talk about this is by questioning how people are [00:12:00] using language, how they're addressing power, how they're creating space on platforms. I mean, how many summits have you been to where we're talking about garment workers, but there isn't a representative from a grassroot organization in that country on the panel.
So, it's all of these but you're just like, you're talking for these people that you're saying are marginalized; you're feeding this dynamic that they're weak, that they don't have power. And in a way, yes, they're being exploited, but they aren't weak people. They are literally, I think, strong people because they're holding up, they're holding the system up for all of us.
And so with Red Carpet Green Dress, we try and collaborate with brands who quite frankly talk it and they do it, like Vivienne Westwood. She's always been such a pioneer from working with the Ethical Fashion Initiative, with artisans from Kenya, Burkina Faso, Afghanistan, and beyond.
She's always had incredible representation at her shows and within her company. I've been there, I've seen it with my own two eyes. She's always championed, like women's rights, climate change and wealth inequality, because [00:13:00] climate change is like one of the biggest examples of how the people least responsible for creating the problem are those most significantly impacted by the after effects or the negative outcomes of the problem.
So, the least wealthy or privileged top of the population, 3.5 billion people, are responsible for just 10% of total global greenhouse gas emissions. But they're the ones who will be dealing with the flooding, the bush fires, et cetera, the food system disruption, et cetera. So, we try and choose brands to collaborate with who get it.
Christian Siriano is another one. And he speaks more to maybe that diversity in the fashion industry. He's notorious for dressing people that the conventional fashion industry doesn't deem desirable. And we love people like that. What he did with Billy Porter and he's just a phenomenal person; and Selma Blair who's dealing with chronic illness and a diverse ability. So, what we try and do, because it's such a big topic, is we try and partner with, collaborate with, and make [00:14:00] spaces for the voices and communities, so we're not speaking for them, if that makes sense.
Christopher Lacy: [00:14:06] Right.
Samata Pattinson: [00:14:06] Yeah. So, we're not going in and saying, "Oh, you, we should all have these bleeding hearts for these communities." we've referred to them as our peers. We refer to them as our partners. We don't say that we're doing this. We're not fundraising for, or we're not saving. We're not saving.
Christopher Lacy: [00:14:22] Right, you're not saving, because to your point, they're not weak and need to be saved. It's more about, we all need to be more educated and active.
Samata Pattinson: [00:14:31] That's it. You hit the nail on the head. It's we need to be more educated, because I'll never forget this quote that Vivienne Westwood said, that I live by, and I've always believed it is, we've lost sense of culture, and part of culture, when you understand culture, you understand the origins of things. You understand that I think about, for example, in Japan, there used to be a group of people that would go around and collect old kimonos. And they would do it like in communities, they would go door to door, they'd collect [00:15:00] these old kimonos, and then they would mend them and return them mended like a week later. In Ghana, we have these fantastic Adinkra symbols that have so much messaging. Some of the symbols say things that mean basically, if you know the value of this cloth, you'll never lose it. And it's basically saying somebody that understands quality will never throw it away; these environmental messages.
And so when you understand culture, then you understand that we actually are in a space where we're telling spaces and parts of the world what to do when we should be sitting down and listening to them. Like we know that indigenous communities are protecting biodiversity, but we also know that the spaces that they're doing that are 35% to 40% more thriving than those that don't have the same protection.
So, instead of telling some parts of the world, what to do, we need to sit down and listen. And we need to give more power and advocacy for these spaces and communities and listen to what they're telling us. So yeah, it's quite a big [00:16:00] topic. So, I hope I've answered your question, but I just, I find it such a big topic.
Christopher Lacy: [00:16:04] You, and I could do an entire episode of us talking about this topic!
From a consumer perspective and this is again, something that I talk about a lot, which is the idea that we think that someone who is on a fixed income, you can't really think about sustainability when you're also thinking about survival. And we had a guest on before, Andrew Rotondi and he and I talked about that.
And I want to ask you, what can consumers do to make sure that they're supporting this small and independent business that are environmentally sustainable and ethically sustainable? But then at the same time, how do we do this so that those who are in a lower price point to purchase have access?
Samata Pattinson: [00:16:59] Yeah. [00:17:00] This is such a good question. And I want to make sure I answer it in the way that covers most of my views, right. So- So first of all, I think, we need to really broaden our understanding of what sustainable means because a lot of people think they're not able to participate in the conversation who are. Now remember sustainable isn't only organic. It isn't only fair trade, which might be more expensively priced. It's secondhand, it's vintage, it's customized, it's knitted, it's darned, it's mended, it's hand me downs. So first of all, there's a whole conversation about what are we putting in this bracket of sustainability? Because a lot of conversation says it's too expensive for many people, but that's because we've shamed people into believing that this other form of sustainability, which is things like mending and all the things I just listed are like undesirable forms of sustainability or things to feel embarrassed about. And it's only recently that thrifting and all of these other things like knitting, things that are actually really fun and creative are suddenly getting their glory days, [00:18:00] right? But let's not make any mistake. That's still sustainable. So, first of all, I do question that idea of who can participate. But when you're talking about yes, certain things like GOT Certified Silk or organic stuff. Yes. That is more expensive because on average they say it's 30 to 40% more expensive. So yes, there is the price, the accessibility part is one thing I do want to touch on. But then the other thing that you mentioned around supporting brands, but maybe not having the disposable; that I also understand. And I think you can support a brand without buying from them. You can tell other people about a brand without being able to afford it yourself, so that there is an ability to share what regardless of what you can participate in that particular brand or not. But what I always say, like my tips to people that want to participate in the conversation, a really kind of along the lines of A, questioning, the brands that you do frequent, because I grew up in Cambridge and to be honest, when I grew up in Cambridge, we had a High Street, we had a Top Shop, we had an H&M we didn't have many independent [00:19:00] boutiques. There were one or two, but they really actually just sold like designer stuff. So, we didn't have like the portobellos and we didn't have these spaces around where I could go and find an independent boutique or an independent designer that was just making in Britain and all this stuff. I didn't know where to go.
So, I always say start where you are. Question the brands that you're able to buy. Do they practice fair trade? How are their garment workers paid, et cetera, et cetera? Look at their website. How transparent is that? Do they have goals within their business for things like environmental, like reducing their carbon footprint, water, health and safety, like women's equity within employment?
So, question the brands that you can afford and frequent with. And have the dialogue with them as well. Do your own research and understand that you can understand things. And there are so many platforms and tools that help you assess the brands that you can frequent. Like, there's Good On You, which is a good app to filter through, there's Labour Behind the Label. So, there's that. And if you do want to support sustainable brands, I say support the ones you can afford to support. Like I [00:20:00] think at the end of the day, what I struggle with is sometimes people will say I can't afford to buy a sustainable brand, but they'll buy 10 items from a fast fashion brand that they could have literally bought like two or three from a sustainable brand.
So, I think there is a need for us to be honest about our expectations of what we want when we're shopping. And people often want bags. They want lots of items. And it's almost a conversation we have to have with our mindset about why do I need to have 50 things to feel great with this shopping trip? Why don't I buy fewer things, but buy them from brands that operate in a way that I respect? So, there's a group of people that can genuinely afford sustainability, but prefer more fast fashion pieces. And I'm not judging them, but that's an honest conversation. And there are people that cannot afford more.
My issue with fast fashion brands now is you're putting people in a position where they have to accept lower quality items with cheaper dyes, which has a whole impact on their body, et cetera, because they can't afford more. So, instead of saying, you get [00:21:00] what you pay for, what you're essentially saying is you get what you can afford. And I'm not okay with that.
So, I think there is an issue here for me with regards to how fast fashion brands churn stuff out that's of a subpar quality, designed to fall apart and they're taking advantage of people that can't afford better. And I think that's just not acceptable.
So, I have a few, views about this, and there's so much more that citizens can do. It's about everything from re-wearing and just de-stigmatizing re-wearing your stuff. It's knowing how to wash your stuff. Cause we throw stuff away because it looks rubbish and we throw it away because we don't know how to wash it. And we throw it away because we don't pay attention to the care labels or we don't air dry it, et cetera, et cetera.
We don't turn our stuff inside out. We don't wash it on call the temperatures, all of these things we could be doing to like extend the life of our clothing, we're not doing. And I think that's a big part of the conversation as well. So, my thing really is, I don't want to be one of those people that's saying you only have to buy from these brands because the way they do [00:22:00] everything is perfect, because it's just not realistic is it?
Christopher Lacy: [00:22:04] It's not realistic.
Samata Pattinson: [00:22:05] Yeah. It's not realistic.
Christopher Lacy: [00:22:07] I actually think and this is just always been my mentality. I actually have items from 1997 that I can still wear right now that people think are brand new. But I really do think it is, we don't actually have a system that teaches people really how to care for their items, even to the point of, if you look at like, I mean, the entire detergent industry, if you think, is based on the idea of making us think that we need to wash our clothes every time we step outside and come back in.
Samata Pattinson: [00:22:36] Exactly.
Christopher Lacy: [00:22:37] You know what I mean? And it's, it's a hard thing to break. I mean.
Samata Pattinson: [00:22:40] Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: [00:22:41] It's not just one theory. It's really kind of a shared consciousness, right? Like, so really trying to reframe that with everyone. And I agree with you.
I want to switch gears, because I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what are CGD? I'm sorry. I just had to [00:23:00] shorten it. I hope you don't mind.
Samata Pattinson: [00:23:02] It's ok, I do it as well.
RCDG is actually our branding for like everything outside of the Oscars. So that's all good.
Christopher Lacy: [00:23:11] Okay, great. See then I'm on brand.
Samata Pattinson: [00:23:13] Yes, you are.
Christopher Lacy: [00:23:17] Actually started amazing initiatives even in everything that was going on. And what I want to know is now going into 2021, after the impacts of COVID-19, we have vaccines happening, we have movement in a positive direction. Are there any new initiatives in regards to the negative impacts of COVID-19 that you're like, you know what because this pandemic happened, we could start doing something in this space, or this area?
Samata Pattinson: [00:23:46] Yeah, it's really funny because it definitely did that for us. It did two things for us. It basically, it accelerated some of the things that we were doing. So there was some things we were going to do that were on the back burner a little bit, or didn't have the same [00:24:00] momentum as other projects. And it basically helped us reorder our priorities in a way, because we were so irate, quite frankly, like about things and me just so I would say there's a couple of things. First of all, we always had the global design contest, right? So, it was always a global design contest from 2009. That's how we started.
And we always would try and generate funds for different initiatives or for different environmental causes or for different environmental organizations. And so, what we did is we pivoted in 2020 and decided to do that with the global design contest for two NGOs. Because we basically were aware of how shoddily garment workers were treated when COVID hit. So, we know that like 91% of retailers refuse to pay for the making of the orders that they'd committed to 98.1%, which is just like, so disheartening, refuse to contribute to the cost of even paying partial wages to furloughed workers.
So, basically people just completely showed themselves. And they've [00:25:00] abandoned so many of the people that make the stuff that they sell, that makes the money. So, we pivoted and we identified two NGOs to direct funds towards, that we were in partnership with. So, one of them is called the Awaj Foundation, which is in Bangladesh and they work to empower workers and enable harmonious industrial relations. So, they're just phenomenal. They work with women so closely and unions, and they have like, I think over 90,000 members. They organize factories, they deliver health care and legal aid. So, they're just phenomenal. And those are the kinds of organizations we just want to like shut up and make room for. Like the most I want to be doing for these organizations is an intro, if that makes sense, and just pay attention to them, you know, "look there!" and the other one is the Fifth Pillar and they're in Myanmar. And obviously right now they're going through it. I'm speaking to the gentleman that we work with through with the Fifth Pillar on our private social channel and they're really going through something politically right now. But they do similar work. They do trade union labor organizations, [00:26:00] make sure that they've got payment systems to safely distribute funds to garment workers. So, it's not that we started something new, but we pivoted the focus when COVID happened. And then we paused with the textiles because it just wasn't the time to push forward with this great material lab when people were losing their jobs and losing their lives. So, that was change.
And what we also accelerated was, I spoke a little bit, I think about global cultural sustainability and the need to de-center these conversations a bit more. So, we had an idea maybe two years ago and come like March of last year, when things started to look really bad, I started to work on it and it's a project that really puts the focus on how we can use language to bridge the gap and have more accessible conversations with people about sustainability around the world. So, we carried out research, interviewed people from over 40 different countries. So that's something that we're doing. And it was really galvanized by watching how culture-less, and [00:27:00] how much of a lack of an understanding the industry has about, who we owe so much to, and that was very much triggered by last year. So, those are some of the things that we did and, yeah. So, and then obviously I'm a black woman. So, seeing what happened with everything around George Floyd, et cetera, we were already working with certain people, but we did also partner with The Route, which was a five-part digital series. And it was putting a spotlight on black and brown indigenous people of color. And it was just fantastic. They provided like a historical and cultural context to inequalities. So, we partnered and sponsored them. So, we did a few things that we wouldn't have necessarily done in the same order, but we would have always done them.
Christopher Lacy: [00:27:41] So, I'm glad you brought us and you made that statement of you're a black woman, because I cannot let our conversation end, and I think our listeners would be very upset if I did, if I didn't talk to you briefly about your experience [00:28:00] in the industry and here you are. I mean, I say this all the time. There weren't many black executives in the fashion industry while I've been in it. Right? And I've been in it for 23 years. And you are a black woman, who is CEO of not just a fashion organization, but also an organization that is extremely conscious. And what we've seen in a fashion industry for years is one that is not conscious. And with the idea that yes, we hire diverse people and we don't discriminate for this. But this is different. And I think what people have to understand about diversity means, is that you are able to hear diverse voices, not just see diverse people.
Samata Pattinson: [00:28:45] Thank you, so well said.
Christopher Lacy: [00:28:47] And for you, what does it mean? Like, being a black CEO in this industry for you and a woman? If we could talk about that for a second and then I promise I'll give you back your day.
Samata Pattinson: [00:28:58] No, no, it's okay. [00:29:00] And thank you for asking that question. I think what you just said about diversity, which is why we feel so strongly that this word diversity is just not enough on its own, right?
Because there's diversity, there's inclusion, there's representation. And the reason that these kinds of different words matter is because yes, diversity reflects the diversity of a population or a diversity of a community or lack of diversity, but inclusion is about participation. And it's about whether you're saying that there is this inclusion in the spaces where decision making is made. Because yes, you might well have more models of color on your runway, or from the BIPOC community and you might have more representation for the diet visibility community, or whatever that is. But what about the decision-making? What about when we go up that ladder, where we're talking about strategy, where we're talking about where resources should be distributed, when we're talking about strategy and who will be [00:30:00] impacted by these decisions, you wouldn't be making some of the decisions you'd be making. I personally believe we wouldn't keep having these ridiculous cases of appropriation, et cetera, if we had more representation and inclusion in these spaces. And it's just so, it's not nuanced, it's extremely narrow. And what happens when you keep consulting a thin, narrow demographic of the population, you do not get a diverse range of solutions, which catered to people outside of those who look, sound, think, and feel the same way as the people you're consulting. People and not capable of putting themselves in other people's shoes these days, they just aren't. And so that representation is necessary. And I also say representation because I think inclusion also doesn't include that. Because inclusion to me is basically saying, we recognize that you should be included in this conversation. Right. Great. Thanks for getting here folks. But also what we're trying to say to you is, to be honest with you, there are conversations in other rooms that you need to [00:31:00] be listening to. We're not inviting you necessarily to the table. No, because we have had to build this table because you haven't included us historically, but you need to be listening to the conversations we're having at these tables to educate yourselves to better understand the world you're living in.
So, I feel that these three words almost cover things for me. And I think like as a black female CEO, the best way I could describe it to you is how I felt last year. How I felt last year was super, super bizarre because suddenly, like I'm a black female CEO leading a sustainability organization, which I've been doing for many years, by the way, it's that whole thing of like, I'm not new, I'm just new to you, right?
Christopher Lacy: [00:31:38] Exactly. Exactly.
Samata Pattinson: [00:31:40] And I've been feeling relatively unseen by, I would say mainstream platforms, et cetera. And I've got to the point where I just didn't care and I was doing my own thing. And then all of a sudden there's like this tsunami of attention and it felt so inauthentic. Because what it felt like it was like, Oh, you, you and I have to have a conversation where we're [00:32:00] pretending like you have genuinely only just noticed I exist in this space. That was really fraudulent for me. And it felt like like, almost like a fetishization of of my experience. So, there was that element of it, which was just really uncomfortable. But on other hand, because of that increased spotlight, so many people within my community were trying to take that spotlight and put it on the causes and the work that they've been doing. Because in a way, when you put personal feelings and when you put just general disregard for the fact that people of color should have representation, inclusion, diversity, we still want the work we do to get the visibility. We still want that to be able to grow, et cetera. So, it was just a really awkward time and it was really frustrating.
And it also had an air of desperation. It was like a clamor for visibility, because it hadn't been given for so long. So, I think as a black woman in this space, I'm often just doing this ridiculous dance and I've stopped doing it. Last year, it was like, that was it for me. It was just like, [00:33:00] no I'm done. But prior to that, I was often doing this dance of, oh, I'm in this space on my own and I have to represent my community.
Christopher Lacy: [00:33:08] Oh I know.
Samata Pattinson: [00:33:09] And it's just, it's just so like, as if any two are alike, right?
Christopher Lacy: [00:33:13] Right.
Samata Pattinson: [00:33:14] It was just; that was a bit of a heavy thing and it was just tiring.
Christopher Lacy: [00:33:18] It almost diminishes your ability sometimes to be able to appropriately strategize the business the way you want, because there's a whole part of your mind that is focused somewhere else, that's taking up energy. And, and you just get to a point where you're like, I just, I can't do both. You know what I mean?
Samata Pattinson: [00:33:37] Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: [00:33:37] And I know what you mean cause I've been in that same spot.
Samata Pattinson: [00:33:43] It's like a double existence. It's literally a double existence. People have different coping strategies. They have like a persona for work. They have all these different things that they do to maintain in that space. And it's actually not fair that anyone should have to do that. It's just it's ridiculous.
Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: [00:33:59] I think [00:34:00] no matter what you are, right? Like we're talking about it from our perspective of our skin tone, being black. But you also can talk about it if you're the only female in a room, or if you're the only person who might have a physical disability. It doesn't matter. It takes root in whatever form where you might be the different person in the set.
Samata Pattinson: [00:34:20] A hundred percent.
Christopher Lacy: [00:34:21] We're going to have to have a whole nother conversation where you get, I'm already telling you now, like we have to have a whole nother conversation.
Samata Pattinson: [00:34:28] I'm down for that.
Christopher Lacy: [00:34:30] Yeah, we have to.
Samata. How can people keep up with what's going on at... RC. I'm a mess. I'm a mess right now.
Samata Pattinson: [00:34:41] Well, there's nothing a mess about you. There is nothing a mess about you. It's RCGD. So, I would say, by the way, I'm so glad that we've had the conversation we've had because it's just been so nice to cover these different things with you. And I really appreciate it. Thank you for giving me the space to do this. But to keep up with Red Carpet Green Dress, we're across all platforms. So, we're [00:35:00] on Instagram @redcarpetgreendress. We're on Twitter as well @redcarpetgreend. And then we're actually recently on Clubhouse, because I'm starting a little Sunday chat where we give an overview of our project, answer questions and just help sustainability people and help designers who want to understand the space a bit more. And just put those facts in there, put that information in there, tackle misinformation and stuff like that.
So, I am @_samata, so I'm all over the place as well. So, if you find one, you'll find the other basically.
Christopher Lacy: [00:35:33] Fantastic. Samata I honestly, thank you so much for today's conversation. I know you thanked me, but I have to say, I really do thank you. I enjoyed this immensely.
Samata Pattinson: [00:35:46] So did I. Thank you so much for having me and I hope I answered your questions well. But they were really great. So, thank you for having me.
Christopher Lacy: [00:35:54] Thank you. You take care.
Samata Pattinson: [00:35:55] I will. You too.
[00:36:00] Fashion Consort: [00:36:01] Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. If you'd like to support the work we're doing, please visit our show page at retailrevolutionpodcast.com and click on the donate link. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell. Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.
