Transcript - Jacqueline Shaw
Season 4, Episode 5
Conversation with Jacqueline Shaw
Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in-depth conversations with guest experts in omni-channel retailing with myriad perspectives, technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current sociopolitical issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail, as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future.
Visit retailrevolutionpodcast.com for more information, including full transcripts and follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn @retailrevolutionpodcast. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are assistant professors in the Fashion Management Graduate program at Parsons School of Design.
Christopher Lacy: With 16 years’ experience in the global fashion industry, living and working in four countries and over four continents for international brands, such as Puma, Russell Athletic, Wilson, and Fila, professional fashion designer, Jacqueline Shaw birthed Africa Fashion Guide, the only sourcing consultancy and information based platform for African fashion. Africa Fashion Guide has become a key tool that educates, informs, and retunes the perceptions of Africa's fashion and textile industry. An industry Jacqueline sees and says is a vehicle for trade and development.
Now as an author of the acclaimed coffee table book, Fashion Africa, an international public speaker, a university lecturer, consultant, and industry researcher, Jacqueline who owns a bachelor's degree in Fashion, a master's degree in Ethical Fashion, and a master's in Social Research is known for being an expert and most proudly an ambassador in the ethical African fashion landscape.
Jacqueline is at the center of an ethical and sustainable revolution. And today this revolutionary speaks with me about craft, creativity, and sustainability.
I am Christopher Lacy, and this is Retail Revolution podcast.
Hi, Jacqueline. Welcome to the show.
Jacqueline Shaw: Hi, Christopher, it's my pleasure. Pleasure to join you. Thank you for the invite once again.
Christopher Lacy: Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today because, I'm going to try to see how much of your life and what you're doing we can cover in about 30 minutes for everyone, because you-
Jacqueline Shaw: Do you think we've got enough time?
Christopher Lacy: I don't know because you're, you're doing some pretty amazing things.
Jacqueline Shaw: Thank you.
Christopher Lacy: So, I want you to tell us a bit about your career trajectory and your arc to this point that you're in now.
Jacqueline Shaw: Yes, sure. I followed the traditional fashion design route. Did my bachelor in a UK school just outside of London and follow that journey as a new designer, you know, getting my first job in fell into sportswear, by chance. And then my whole career kind of fell around sports design. So, hence the brands that you mentioned. I've been able to work with the biggest probably or most popular, I guess, being like Puma in the UK. So, that was a route I followed, I enjoyed what I did. I was doing design, a little bit development.
I had the chance to live in various countries, working for different brands and retailers and truly enjoyed the creativity of the craft, the whole experience of working in fashion. But I did find that some points that I also had a big interest in sustainability, but at the time I didn't really know what it was called. It was just this interest in things like the climate change, which again, didn't have that title. It was more around the ozone layer and the big hole ozone layer, about secondhand clothing and so forth. And I, felt that there was something in industry was bothering me and I wanted to do something about it. I felt it can't just be design that I'm doing, there must be something more, a contribution I can play. And whilst I was at PMR, I was very blessed that they agreed to sponsor a masters that I found, a master's degree in ethical fashion. And literally since then, it's just been unexpected experience. Just setting up a business I never planned to set up and just kind of fell into it but have enjoyed it every step of the way. And so, now I'm kind of out of design and doing this, this business Africa Fashion Guide with all my effort and I call myself an ambassador because I truly am champion in the story of ethical fashion in Africa, Made in Africa and the African opportunity. So, that's in a nutshell trying to bring it all into a very short-term story for you, but that's it the nutshell.
So, before we get into your new business venture, which is what brought you and I together. I want to take a look at your book, Fashion Africa. And I want to ask you, what compelled you to want to do this coffee table book? It really is a celebration, right, of Africa in a way.
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's I think that is it. During my bachelor’s degree, I had a part-time job to support my studies and it was working in the local library throughout my part of London, and I would always end up in the art section, as you do, as a textile student and fashion student.
And I would always see that there wasn't any kind of stories around that, about African textiles. But I, you know, growing up with my Nigerian and Ghanaian friends, I'd always hear about the weddings and these textiles and these amazing clothing and traditions and art, like, but I don't see this in any books.
So, later on to be doing this business and I did my degree, I said, you know what, I have to create a book. I have to create these kinds of coffee table books that I know Thames and Hudson, my favorite publishers at the time they kept creating really beautiful fashion books.
I thought, I could do this for Africa. I know how to use and design. I can interview people. I can bring people together. I get some illustrators on board and just, just make a book and get it, and self publish it. And that's literally what I did and organized the conference event as well to kind of showcase the book and speak to those people involved in the industry. But it literally was to change the narrative, because it was showing a sustainable fashion story in Africa and it was showcasing contemporary African fashion. Because all I saw in the library was from the Massai cultural group, people from that group or that kind of image. And I was like, no, there's something else around Africa. So, let's do a book that celebrates, as you say what Africa is showing today.
Christopher Lacy: You said a great word there where you set the narrative that you typically saw is only part of Africa is about and quite possibly a smaller part than the rest of the world understands.
And with your research and your background in ethical African fashion, with what you're doing through your consultancy of connecting entrepreneurs appropriately about sustainable fashion in Africa. What do you think people really aren't understanding about one, the narrative of just African fashion in general, and then two, the movement around sustainability coming out of countries in Africa?
Jacqueline Shaw: You know, I think people aren't understanding that, first of all, it's not a country, we always have to go back to that aspect. Africa is not a country.
Christopher Lacy: Right.
Jacqueline Shaw: There's so many different countries within that continent. There's so much different traditions in history. And the African story and African history is not slavery. Because many do associate that with Africa. That's world history. African history is so diverse. so many kingdoms, so much heritage, so much culture, so much language, so much of everything. And I thought that a lot of people are missing out on that. So, even those involved in fashion, they see it as, can Africa make fashion? Can they do that? Is that possible? Do they have the machines? Do they have the people? Do they have the skills and talent? Where we know a lot of creativity comes from Africa. I mean music and food and travel is showing that right now. So, that's the first aspect.
And then the side around sustainability, throughout my whole journey, exploring African fashion, the sustainable story just kind of linked in extremely well because of the fact that many things are made by hand. And it's a cottage industry, the kind where you have your own tailor, you get things made in small quantities. It's not a fast fashion environment. And so, things are done very differently, and things are looked after. Things are kept. Things are reuse, repurpose, because that's just how it is.
Christopher Lacy: You hit on something about things being handmade, and the aspect of fast fashion. Why I find that intriguing is because Africa could possibly find itself and quite often is now, being exploited by a fast fashion business model...
Jacqueline Shaw: Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: From a working standpoint. And then also just from a product waste standpoint. So, how can we begin as an industry and what are the things, you're doing that can help curb this from getting out of hand, even though it's already out of hand.
Jacqueline Shaw: Yeah. You know, I'm glad you raised that point because when I was doing my, Ethical Fashion masters, the whole secondhand clothing industry was one that I researched, found out about and explored. This is a beast of a machine. And I'm calling it that, because that's exactly what it is. There's a group of people who are making a lot of money at the expense of, they're at the expense of the consumers in the global West to start with, because it makes them think that, okay, you’re recycling your clothes. You're contributing to this environment by, you know, not throwing it away, but you're giving it away and you're supportive. So, it makes them feel that they're doing was a little bit of encouraging the bit of greenwashing. And then, you know, they're exploiting the African, well, not just African markets, but the the markets the so-called third world, a term I don't always like to use; let’s say developing countries. Because what they do is they're making money off them. They're, selling these products and it's a huge industry. And you have to understand the second hand clothing is split into so many levels. So, you have the so-called vintage pieces as they call them, which go to places like Japan and more affluent markets. And then it gets trickled down to what's seen as less and less worthy goods and they get sent to more and more developing countries. And it really is a beast. It really is a beast. What I try to do is I try to encourage trade. I completely believe that if you want to see change in Africa, then fashion is a vehicle and trade is the tool. And, that's one of the major things that I try to encourage, is for people to do trade with the continent. So, we're not just taking the raw materials, which has been known for Africa, but you're adding the value by producing the finished goods on the continent and then exporting that. So, you're not just taking the oranges or pineapples, but you're making the pineapple juice and orange trees in the cartons, in the bottles, in Africa, then you're exporting it as finished goods. Because then more value is kept on the continent. And that's the kind of message that I try to distill amongst those who have time to listen to me. So, yeah.
Christopher Lacy: Is there a difficulty navigating that because to our point earlier Africa is made up of many different countries. And so then you have the issue of trade where, it might be different languages and dialects and all those things that play a role in trade. How do you navigate those barriers? Because different cultures between the countries as well, but you know, they're border to border in that way, but they're all being exploited in some way.
Jacqueline Shaw: Yeah. You know what it is, you know, I just had this vision that it's an American thing where young people would, you call it jump rope or double dutch is that...
Christopher Lacy: Yes, double dutch.
Jacqueline Shaw: I see it as just like that, you have to find the moment to jump in do your bit and then you kind of jump out and you jump in again. As you get the moment. It can be a little bit like navigating double dutch, finding the moment that you can jump in to contribute, bring your expertise and then come back out and jump in together another point. It's very complex because of so many barriers, and when I say barriers, not just business barriers, but the fact that you've got borders, the fact you've got different languages. And all of things you spoke about, but we're seeing things change.
Remember Africa was a continent which had less borders. And it was only through colonialism that it got separated into the countries as we know; not so divided. But now what we're seeing is things happening like the African Continental Free Trade Agreement or AREA, which is a little bit like the European Union where you may have the duties and the custom challenges, like there is today, so that's coming and to really kind of set up. And that will mean that maybe you've got a ginnery or a mill in one country, and then you can get cotton. Let's say cotton for Mali and then it can be brought to Burkina Faso where they to set up and you got it cotton in January and be processed there.
And then it can go to a manufacturing unit in another African country and they won't have the barriers and the borders that can affect that trade from being effective. Because that's, the main thing is, the ecosystem of the complex supply chain of fashion, as we all know it. And creating more connections, joining those dots to simplify it.
My company is launching an African Fashion sourcing platform. One of the things that I say is "African sourcing simplified." And that's what we're trying to do is helping to simplify that as a means of connecting the buyers to the makers in a "today" method of doing it, which is through a digital platform. So yeah, it's complex, but things are slowly changing, but it takes us all working together to see that change happen.
Christopher Lacy: Well I want to pivot from that, because that's one side of who you are and what you do. And I, love multifaceted people. As you were in the process of doing all these things, you, I guess, got the idea, you're like, I'm going to start a subscription box service.
Jacqueline Shaw: Yep.
Christopher Lacy: And it is called Wax and Wraps.
Jacqueline Shaw: That's correct. Yeah. I was trying to think of the best word to call myself. I call myself a serial entrepreneur. I get a bit obsessive with maybe it's the creative in me. I mean, if you're a creative, you know, we just always have these new ideas, like, Ooh, I could do that. Oh I could make this, oh I could do that. And we just don't know when to stop sometimes, but in truth, this business was something that I created during the initial lockdown. I had a subscription based business model before, within Africa Fashion Guide, my main company. So, doing subscriptions and memberships type business, I already had that model as part of my business income streams. But then I recognized we're in this lock down, things are changing. The markets are changing. I've seen my community, my people they're struggling. They're getting furloughed. They're losing jobs. They're not sure what to do. They're sitting back thinking that things are a mess. I don't know what's going to happen next. And the industry is changing. I thought, you know what? The best business model out there right now is subscription based business models because they give you recurring income. And I've seen how that has positively affected me and supported my own income even during the pandemic and prior to that.
I look at general business as well. I look at things like Netflix and Canva for all the people who like to do the social media through Canva. And even Zoom; that we've all become like over-zoomed over the last year. And I think they've made huge amount of monies just from the lockdown; but it's their model, it's not who they are. It's their model of subscription, their model of recurring income. And I recognized that I could build a business model based on that, which also linked in with something else I saw happening, which was a resurgence of the craft industry. People getting back to their sewing, their craft, their knitting, getting out of boredom.
I could bring the two together that served, obviously myself, that served the community of crafters and teach people how to do as well. So, teaching them that model to create their own boxes. And with an African twist, of course, because yeah, that's my, that's my niche.
Christopher Lacy: So, you know, to give our listeners kind of a rundown of it, it's really quite brilliant. Your subscription box service is delivering, fabrics. And it's African prints. And it's different types of fabrics, but you're also giving them a guide on how to create a garment or a head wrap, correct?
Jacqueline Shaw: So, we have a few different boxes. So yeah, just to explain the box. It is Wax and Wraps is an African print subscription box company. So, that means that every month, if you choose monthly or bi-monthly, you will be sent our signature box is a sewist box. It has fabrics in there. It has trims and notions. This month, we're doing a bomber jacket. Now the fabric for the jacket is coming from one of our supplier partners in Africa who does batiks. And so we get in that fabric, we're getting the ribbed cuffs, we're getting the zipper and the linings as well. And then you have the pattern as well inside the box. So, there's sewing kits inside the box and it's with African fabrics. So, not just your typical ankara stroke wax prints, or what people will call African prints, but it's also working with artisans, again, the whole trade story about Africa, working with artisans to make the fabrics, to print the fabrics, to weave the fabrics. And those will go in the boxes and I give people an information card that tells them about the kind of fabrics in Africa, like who made it, origin stories. Plus, I give them a little gift. They might be like some Massai earring jewelry or something like that. So, they really feel like Africa is coming to their home every single month. It's really interesting and it's really fun for me. It's a fun business for me; it really is.
Christopher Lacy: Well, it sounds super exciting. And I have to ask you. If someone had no experience with being able to create their own garment and they hear about this and they're like, you know what? I want to start doing my part more with not consuming products all the time and learning the craft of making this. Could they do it? Could they get this and understand it and do it, or do you kind of need to be a designer who understands quite a bit of this process?
Jacqueline Shaw: Not at all, quite a few of the subscribers will say, "Oh, I'm a newbie, I love African prints, African fabrics. And I'm a newbie. And, because of this, my YouTube kind of always is starting up where I'll be showing my sewing skills cause I used to do brideswear as well. I had a bridal business, sewing for brides and their bridesmaids, so I'll be doing that as well."
And so yeah, it's not everybody really, who has an interest in sewing who may be beginners. And the projects, they can use those sewing projects, or they can use something else. But the choice is theirs. But I'll be supporting them. We have like a challenge each month where I give a prize for, even if you're not a subscriber, you can join in the sewing challenge and make something and just getting courage. And you have a Facebook group and a community.
And the main thing is to #havefunwithprince is a hashtag I use. And also the phrase we use is, helping you to take control of your own wardrobe. It's all about the ownership, ownership of your own clothing, ownership of your own wardrobe and confidence, as well, in making what you want and how you want. It's really to empower people in that way and help them to just have fun during this, season, we are in.
Christopher Lacy: This sounds super exciting. And, I'm in the US I know you're in the UK and in between the UK and Africa. So, hopefully everyone in the US can subscribe. Yes?
Jacqueline Shaw: Please.
Christopher Lacy: Ok great.
Well, we'll give everyone information in a bit. I do want to ask you about this, because there has been conversation for years in the industry around, and I want your thoughts on this, around appropriation of cultures. And appropriation and celebration. And to your point, you said, it's not the classic African prints that that people think of. But I do wonder what demographic has been connecting to this subscription box, because it is really centered around. And to me, it sounds like it's celebrating the artisanry of Africa.
Jacqueline Shaw: It is. Yes. There is a comment that I get, even when I put maybe a Facebook ad out and people can see it. Well, firstly, the most interesting thing is that majority of my subscribers are white European women of a particular age group, who've been sewing for many, many, many years. That's the majority, but obviously in people who are new to the market, is people of color, mostly women of color who also subscribe. Now, some of them will reach out to me quietly and will be like, I want to, because I also have a head wrap box and we have an Africa culture box, and Africa word box, which is like books from African writers and like things for your desk--notebooks and pencils and things--with African print.
So, you know, some will say, I want to get a head wraps, so I want to get the fabric, but I'm just concerned. I'm a white lady, should I buy it? Should I wear it? Would it not be culturally inappropriate for me to do that? And we talk about that and I think the main thing is through cultural appropriation is a fact that many are taking from cultures and then not sharing about the history. They just take it as their own. And that's the main issue, is more about the sharing of stories, even if like, okay, my family are of Jamaican heritage, some could say that, you know, I'm not directly African, you know, and I'm in this African space and I'm culturally appropriating it when I'm wearing kente or even cutting kente, which you shouldn't even do, which I have done, you know, but really you shouldn't cut, it is a wrapping fabric. And so, many could say that because I'm black, many don't know, you know, where I'm originally from, but I believe it's something that we should all celebrate as long as you're given kudos back to the makers who are sharing the stories, then that's it.
And also, the fact that we do have a mix between, you can choose the hand printed fabrics, or you can choose a typical wax print, ankara fabric. So, if somebody feels, "Oh, I don't really want to feel out of place," they can choose a batiks and nobody would really know where it's coming from, because it could be coming from Asia, who do batik. So, other parts of the world. there's that aspect as well.
Christopher Lacy: I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you today. I feel like there's so many more things I want to talk to you about, especially as we talk more about culture and telling the stories of cultures and handcraft, and really, where can we go with this in the future? But in the meantime, how can our listeners stay up to date with what you're doing? Because you are setting the world on fire and doing so much.
Jacqueline Shaw: Oh, wow. I'm just enjoying it. I really am enjoying it and I want others to come on board and enjoy it with me. Come on this journey. So, if you always sewist, or if you're a head wrap lover then reach out on Instagram @ waxandwraps. Exactly as it sounds @waxandwraps. We have the website is under that name as well [waxandwraps.com]. You can go to our shop and you can purchase just the fabrics, if you want, just the fabrics alone. We have shop there. Or if you're thinking, you know what, I want to kind of start a fashion business in Africa and that's something else I'd like to kind of look into and learn a bit more, you can reach out to me @africafashionguide that's Africa, no "n" there just @africafashionguide on Instagram and send me a DM. Slide in my DMs. Say hello!
Christopher Lacy: Jacqueline, thank you for your work. Thank you for your words. And I look forward to speaking with you again.
Jacqueline Shaw: Thank you.
Joshua Williams: Thank you you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution, a very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. If you'd like to support the work we're doing, please visit our show page at retailrevolutionpodcast.com and click on the donate link. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell. Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.
