Transcript - Fashion & Racism

Producer Joshua Williams joins host Christopher Lacy in a special conversation with Sabrina Lynch, an Integrated Marketing and Communications Specialist.

Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution is a special, limited podcast created specifically for "Retailing and Service Design," a unique course that is part of the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design in New York City. Each episode features in depth conversations with guests, experts and omnichannel retailing with myriad perspectives, technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to the short and longterm challenges and implications of COVID-19 and potential opportunities to rethink retail's future. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy, both are Assistant Professors in the School of Fashion at Parsons.

Christopher Lacy: Hello everyone. And welcome to a very special episode of Retail Revolution podcast. I am extremely excited today to do this conversation with our producer, Joshua Williams, as well as co-creator. 

Thanks, Chris. I'm really happy to be part of this conversation today. 

And, Sabrina Lynch, who is SVP at Taylor Strategies, she is a TEDx speaker and an adjunct professor. She is working and has worked in the integrated marketing and communications space, and really across multiple brands, such as CPG, in entertainment, luxury, travel, and hospitality and philanthropy. So it's, it's with great pleasure that I welcome Sabrina Lynch to the Retail Revolution podcast.

Sabrina Lynch: Thank you for having me. 

Christopher Lacy: Yes. Ever since we started this podcast, we always knew that we wanted to have you on for a conversation. And while I thought we would  be discussing something different, I'm glad that we have you on as an expert and really to hear your voice. 

So Sabrina, could you tell our listeners a bit about you?

Sabrina Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a marketing consultant and I've worked on integrated marketing campaigns and communication campaigns for over a decade. Not only in the US market, but also international markets spanning Amir, Australasia and the Americas too. So, it's my job not only to understand audience behaviors and insights within different demographics from a country perspective, but also what is demanded of those consumers in those markets, from the brands who are targeting in those countries as well.

Christopher Lacy: That sounds like the funnest job! 

So, Sabrina, the reason I thought that it would be ideal for you and I to have a conversation today, in the addition of Joshua, is we over the last week in the United States have really embarked upon a new situation, a new crisis.  We're still in the midst of COVID-19, and we are now in a social and cultural,   upheaval. We've had multiple instances that have occurred over the last month, involving black people. And I want to say black people, and I am saying black people because, I don't want there to be any type of confusion. And I don't want this particular conversation that we have to get diluted with it being about inclusivity for every different type of underrepresented group. Because what we're seeing is a movement happening based upon the reactions and behaviors towards a particular group of people. 

So, what I want to start us out with is, you know, for me, I think what's been really frustrating is the lack of voice heard in the fashion industry, especially from major brands around this topic. And I want to ask you, is, is that shocking to you or, or do you think that makes sense as a marketer that we haven't heard from them? 

Sabrina Lynch: Yeah. So I just to go back to the point you made, I would say that these tensions have always existed in society. This movement is not new by any means. These oppressions and obstacles that marginalized communities have been facing have always, it's always been the same agenda. It's the frustration that we're seeing right now is the going in full circle all the time. An incident happens, we protest people say they're making a change. There isn't significant change. And then we go around again in a loop. 

So, from that respect, it's not new. It's just at the moment because of the Covid, and because of the pandemic, because the disruption of everyday life hasn't interrupted the spotlight of this one particular case. And we also have to remember that for every George there's more who had lost their lives of these incidents. It just so happens that this unfortunate moment in time, George is under the spotlight and created this catalyst for the behavior, for the frustration, for the anger to come out. 

Christopher Lacy: Oh, I, I, I agree with you on that because I think when we look at the things that have happened over the last three weeks, we can go back to last month we can go back to the month before, last year, year before. We can go back 40 years, 50 years, 60 years, and it's all repetitive. Right? So, it's not new. I think , to that point, you have people that are now a captured audience. Who now get to sit and think. And a lot of people have been thinking about what their life is supposed to be like and what it should be like and how they can make a difference in this time of slowing down. So now this is far more magnified, so you're absolutely correct. 

Joshua Williams: And I love the point you made about, you know, wanting to really focus.  This is such a systemic issue that, that racism, especially around black people is built into our very system. And you are asking the question about why the fashion community hasn't responded. And one of the things that I'm thinking about is, is that because this sort of racist experience, and it's not always sort of  aware, right? These are systems that have been in place for hundreds of years and, a lot of people, white people in particular, are just not even aware of their actions or the systems that are in place that are holding black people down.

I wonder if they're sort of, not even sure how to grasp that for, for a couple of reasons. One, because, in this sort of white system, so to speak, they don't have any plan to really know how to approach this topic. And I think also, and I'm sure we'll talk about this a little bit more. There aren't a lot of people of color in these brands, especially on the luxury side or the more visible brands. And so, I'm imagining that a lot of them are trying to grapple with, how do you speak about an issue that we have not been very good about addressing in our own company, let alone to our consumers, let alone to the world at large. 

Sabrina Lynch: 100%. What I would say to that, to go back to the question that you asked about the surprise the fashion industry being rather quiet. I'm really not. Because, when we've seen examples of when unconscious bias or direct racism comes through in the end products on the catwalks of the choices that are made in the clothing. And there is no one there to hold that behavior accountable. And then it becomes the scramble of finding committees, hiring head of diversity and inclusion offices within these fashion brands.  If they're not able to visually see the errors in their ways of something so minute in the industry, how would we expect them to understand how to have a voice or how to speak against the atrocities that we are seeing against marginalized communities, point being African Americans right now.

So, it doesn't surprise me, because they don't know how to address it. And they also...finding it difficult to find the articulation, and allowing that mirror to be held up to them again of failures that they've made, not just from a marketing position, but also from internal and how they need to support their employees too.

But, let's take the example of Target, for instance, not that they've done anything wrong, but within their building being obviously vandalized and burnt down, the messaging that they put out was, we are going to look after our workers. They will be placed somewhere else. So we make sure that they don't have to worry about their salary. We cannot allow what's happened to this particular store, take away from the messaging that a black man died and racism exists. And we want to be an ally to that, which I just hold so commendable. 

Christopher Lacy: I agree.

Sabrina Lynch: My appreciation and a nuance from a luxury from the higher fashion level,  everyone's panicking about the right language instead of putting the jargon aside and speak with the heart. And I don't think they've ever been really pushed to do that. 

Joshua Williams: In an industry, especially on the luxury side, that is so built around exclusivity,  the whole narrative of many of these brands is who do we let in versus who do we keep out? And, you know, and I think if we go back, even historically, there's been 20, 30 years and way beyond that, but I'm just thinking even, you know, since the nineties and I'm thinking of Dapper Dan and things like that, I've just this real, desire to keep black people out of these brands. Right? And now we're seeing a completely different situation where these brands are commodifying black culture, within their so-called street wear collections and things like that. But I think you're absolutely right Sabrina, in the sense that I don't even think they have quite the words to articulate it. They certainly didn't when they were doing blackface on the runway or on a bag at Prada, you know, there was an apology, but I don't even think that, that there was a true understanding of how did that happen? Why did it happen? You know, what is the history, the long history in fashion that sort of leads up to, to the situation that we're in today and how do you, how do you communicate in this space. 

Sabrina Lynch: Absolutely. And also, those I'm going to go right back to the example of George's case because it mirrors again, the behavior behind  the incidents that happened within the fashion industry last year. It's one example of probably a legacy of examples that never got checked and because they never got checked, there's been a license and a permission to continue to create collections of this nature,  designing looks that offend communities because you haven't taken the time to actually understand those communities. 

And that's a big thing I do want to focus on as part of this discussion. I think this is a massive wake up call for fashion brands to understand the very definition of culture. Being part of culture goes beyond being corporated in its output. Namely, the fashion, the music, the art and spaces. Culture is founded on beliefs, behaviors, experiences of a community from race to religion. And so to be part of culture, it's be part of the experience and the obstacles or the struggles that they face that result in the output, which is the fashion. So, you can't come in to the end result, want to monopolize, benefit, profit from it without actually being supported of the obstacles and challenges that it took for that journey to that output. It's enraging! 

Christopher Lacy: I love that you brought that up because, especially in luxury fashion, they haven't moved on from what they think the bad consumer is. They only moved on in the sense of looking for and trying to acquire the younger consumer. Actually, I take that back. It's it's two things. One was for years, how do we get the Chinese consumer? How do we get the Chinese consumer? And the other is how do we get the younger consumer? How do we get the young consumer? That's what it was. And so their ideology of who the client was and who was part of that culture was never addressed. And I just like there's numbers that even back up how wrong it was for them to continue to pursue their marketing and advertising and collections in this way.

So, you know, there are a few things that I, you know, pulled from Nielsen a few months ago, and I think it's great for this conversation. And I want to go through a few of them. So, when we look at African American spending, Blacks are 20% more likely than the total population to say they will pay extra for a product that is consistent with the image I want to convey 20% more likely. And this is mostly, and we know this if you are African American, is that physical appearance reflects a sense of cultural pride and self expression in the black community. So, of course they're willing to spend, we are willing to spend 20% more. Another thing is they are also more likely to say they shop at high end stores, including Saks Fifth Avenue at 63% Neiman Marcus at 45% and Bloomingdale's at 24%. Another number that I think is interesting that, that doesn't get any attention. More than half, 52% of African-Americans, find in-store shopping, relaxing compared with 26% of the total population. 55% of black consumers say they enjoy wandering the store, looking for new, interesting products.

And you know, the numbers go on and on to suggest this is a population that should be looked at and listened to. And they are not. And why I think it's funny is you have fashion industries and retailers that go, how do we get people and drive people to the stores? How do we get people to the stores? Do you have an entire community of people that's saying, we enjoy shopping in the stores, talk to us and we'll tell you what you need to do. And that hasn't happened and it doesn't happen. So, I think it's quite difficult to strategize appropriately and be a part of the culture when you ignore the data that that culture is giving you or that demographic of people give you.

Joshua Williams: So, do you think that in large part that's because most of these fashion companies are made up of, and let's just say it as it is, white males, that they are the primary leadership of these companies and have been, over the last hundred years . And that essentially, while these numbers  have a lot of impact and clearly any good marketing person's going to look at those numbers and go, clearly we have a demographic that needs, wants to engage with us and our products. But, I often wonder if they're even looking at that data because it never occurred to them to look at that data because they are so myopic in terms of their own experience.

And then the fact that everyone around them is essentially in that same experience that no, one's there sitting at the table saying, Hey, what about this other demographic? 

Christopher Lacy: Yeah. I think that's exactly what it is. I think, you know, if we go back to Nike's engagement with colin Kaepernick. And I'm sure there were people that were like, well, Nike did it because, you know, they get more clients. But, the way I look at it is, is I'm sure there were people in the room at Nike and they said, We are pretty sure that non racist spend more money than racists and we can afford to lose racists. And this isn't about the fact of acquiring new clients because we're Nike. They, they know they wouldn't lose so much market share and also didn't care clearly in support of this because it mattered. It mattered to them because they understood at their core, we can't use black athletes  in our ads and to promote shoes and clothing and apparel, and then not support the black community at this time. That would have looked crazy. And Nike understood that and they said, We are fine with whatever loss has happened, because we aren't trying to acquire a new client. What we're saying is, is the clients that we do have, the ones that are engaging with us from an entry price point level all the way up, what we're saying is we hear you, we got you. And not only that, but it forces that person--it forced me--I don't buy near as much Adidas as I do because now I'm back to buying more things from Nike. 

Sabrina Lynch: I would also add to this as well. It's again, accountability has increased so much as a priority right now within consumer mindset. Neutral is not enough. And fashion brands have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. You cannot allow a society that devalues the life of one of your customers at the same time, you are profiting from the culture of the oppressed. That has to change. And so what I would say to the point you were talking about how more people behind the scenes who are predominantly Caucasian, that's a bigger visible red flag to me, if anything. If your workforce and the executive workforce, just as much as you go down the employee chain, if they are not reflective of the customer and the audience. Basis that you are servicing to, you have already lost because you are only seeing your own truth. And statistics come all the time. They change all the time, but you also need to have the humanized perspective as well. 

So, as much as they were appreciating, say for instance, the 55%, we were talking about Chris of African Americans, liking to go into stores and liking to go around. They ignore that because in their mind, well, African-Americans only take up less than a quarter percent of the population of the US, so it doesn't really matter.

And also another thing which I need to really emphasize, that needs to change, is stop referring to ethnic minorities as ethnic minorities. We are the emerging majority. And so if you are lacking the foresight to see the potential in our spending power, but also at the same time, profiting from the output of the culture that we have created, even though our lives are being devalued,and you're not acknowledging that, then you have to have a really honest and truthful conversation with yourself about what your values stand for, because the values that you say into the external world, I really don't like the way that diversity and inclusion, for instance, it's touted around as a trend or a buzzword. It's not. It's about people's lives here. We're talking about who they are.  You are targeting communities of people and you're courting them to invest in your products and your services and your campaigns. And also those who are looking to be included or part of pivotal culture that shapes the very economy that you are pushing.

You can't pick and choose parts of that culture or parts of that life that benefit your bottom line, because you've made a commitment to the person at the center of that culture, who they are, what they stand for, their identity, their values, they are both customer and employee. So unless you have an understanding of how those two ,marry together, and then you are not at liberty to divorce the two, then you're going to have a real issue. A real, real issue that effectively will not return and dividends for you because what we are again seeing is that this generation are not going to let these things slide. They will hold you accountable at any front. 

Christopher Lacy: I'm glad you brought that up because what you just said really boils down to one word, which is a word that's used so often when it comes to engaging with consumers and that word is authenticity.

And we've talked, on multiple episodes up to this point on Retail Revolution podcast about brands and the need for authenticity. it's always a challenge is how do we come across as authentic. And , I love numbers, so I think what's interesting is that 42% of black adults expect brands that they purchase to support social causes. And that's actually 16% higher than the total population. That being said, in between the years, 2018 and 2019, the spend on advertising targeted for black consumers dropped by 5%, but then you also have retailers that are trying to increase dollars. So, that goes to them not understanding how to be authentic with this group of consumers, which then Sabrina and Joshua goes back to your point,  there aren't the right people in the room. 

Joshua Williams: I love the authenticity piece. And as, as Sabrina was talking, there was just something that came to mind and I think, and I don't know if this is provocative or not, I it's uncomfortable, but I think that white culture thinks they have to sanitize other cultures, especially African American culture. And what I mean by that is that. And I'll use the luxury brands here as an example, is that they'll take what is obviously very hot in pop culture, right? So let's say hip hop music, and then they'll take it and then they'll sort of luxsify it. They'll put their Balmain spin on it. And essentially they're sanitizing it and I  don't even know if I like that word or if it's the right word, but it just feels like there's gatekeeping that's happening between the real and the authentic that you're talking about Christopher and Sabrina.  But, the fact is, is that systemically we as a culture, I think are parsing that black experience, the black creativity, the black, whatever it is. And we're parsing it through the white experience so that it can be, 

Christopher Lacy: digestible,

Joshua Williams: digestible by the white audience. It's an uncomfortable way to sort of put it out there. But I do honestly think whether we're aware of it or not, that's happening, especially in fashion.

Sabrina Lynch: I agree.  I'm going to give an example of this just coming from a more personal experience than it is for, for professional. So you may remember like luxury brands, I think two years ago, where the fur, do you remember the first slippers that were open and it had the fur around the back? 

Christopher Lacy: Yes.

Joshua Williams: Yes.

Sabrina Lynch: When that came out? When I staring at these slippers, I would talk to my friends and my family, and I said, doesn't that look like my father, daddy's house slippers, because that was the style of slipper that my, my dad and my granddad used to wear around the house when I was a child. I don't want to say it's a West Indian style for instance, but it was certainly a popular design aesthetic. And, then come all these years later and I see that luxury brands have taken that shape and they've just put fur on it and then slapped a thousand dollars on top of it. It perplexed me. I was, I was confused by that. Because, I thought this is so ingrained with, when we talk about, especially in West Indian communities about certain behaviors and aesthetics in the home or clothing that we all joke about because we remember, and that slipper, that shoe was part of it. But, like you were saying, when it's sanitized, when it's given a gloss over from the luxury eye, Now it's okay for outdoors. Now it's okay to be out on the street because it's been given permission to. And that for me goes where people lend far more to the eye of luxury, fashion brands to dictate what is worthy to be on the street and what is not. 

Our society in the US has done this in so many different areas. We've seen it happen in fashion, but I'll never forget seeing it happen even in the restaurant industry, right? You know, I went to a place and they were serving fried okra and which I don't like fried okra. I think it's disgusting. And they also had chitlins on the menu and this is not a soul food restaurant to be clear. But, the fact of the matter was is that they had fried okra and chitlins on a menu and they were costing more than $25. And I thought, now this is hilarious because this is food that slaves had to eat, right? Because it was the leftovers. And now I'm coming into this restaurant and it's more than $25, because we've put it on some beautiful table and the place setting is fine. Those are the little things that occur, where consumers are consuming things, but not understanding the story behind what they're consuming or why that's meaningful or why that's even meaningful to a particular culture. And I think fashion does tha t ad nauseum. But, I also think this is happening because the fashion industry has chosen to focus on so many other things other than its issue of inclusivity. And I want you guys' thoughts on this. I've been in the industry for 23 years now. I have spoken more about sustainability in two years than I have ever talked about inclusivity in 23. And I find that to be extremely telling that this is a topic that we just can't talk about.

And if the topic is broached in any way, and we talk about inclusivity and please no one who's listening thinks that I have a problem with this, cause I don't, cause I lend my voice to it is about inclusivity of women. And the pay structure of women in the workplace or the representation of more women in the workplace. But I would argue and say, you'd be very hard pressed to find black executives, black retail executives, black fashion executives, outside of, you know, maybe being an editor or writer or a stylist in the industry.  I can easily find women. 

 Joshua Williams: One of the things that keeps coming to mind is  how do we put words to this? How do we have a conversation? So we're talking a lot about sustainability and those things. Those are the buzzwords, omnichannel retailing, I mean, there's a million of them. And inclusivity, you know, Sabrina, you discussed that as almost a buzzword rather than just a way of doing business. And, it should be sort of integral to everything we do. I wonder though, if we even go back to the 1960s. Essentially, Americans sort of lost their ability to talk about race in the open, because I think there was a time in our history where we sort of decided, okay, we're no longer racist. Black people now have equal rights and all of these things. And so we can just go on and move on in our lives and everything's going to be fine. That was a long time ago. I mean, it's more than 50 years ago. And I think over time, we've lost the ability to have some of these hard conversations. And I think that that goes everything from the system that we're talking about and who's part of the system and who has a say in the system. So in other words, Who gets a job at the, you know, at the brand or at the company. But it also, I think, circles around this whole idea of where do these products come from, because I can guarantee you that nobody in any sort of boardroom is having a conversation at a restaurant group about, you know, what is the story behind fried okra and things like that. You know what I mean? And then, and then there's probably even if there is, there's like, do we even talk about that? Or, you know, is that going to make people feel uncomfortable? I just wonder if we've lost the ability up until today, because I think something is changing, I think COVID in many ways is sort of just unearthing the inequity across the board. And obviously what we're seeing is the suffering of black people because of that. And in so many ways beyond the murders, but also just in terms of how this pandemic is affecting black people and people of color, at a much higher rate. I just wonder if we, up until this point, and I'm saying up until this point, because I really truly hope this is a change that we're going to see that we just lack the words that it's easier to not say anything. You know, it's easier to say, Oh, I have a black friend. I'm not racist. 

Sabrina Lynch: In my experience. If you open up, if you have to validate the number of people in your social network when you're trying to make a point about race and you've already got some internal ... 

Joshua Williams: Absolutely.

Sabrina Lynch: And I've yet to find a black person who says, I completely understand the problems with economic power. I've got five white friends, never been in a conversation.

Joshua Williams: I've never, no, never. 

Sabrina Lynch: Anybody.

Joshua Williams: Well, just the fact that we're actually calling white people, white people is an important thing. I was talking to Christopher earlier in the day and just the ability to call race as it is, as opposed to sort of hiding behind, oh, there's no racism. There's no color. Everyone's the same. Even in that covers the, the issue, because then we don't have any way to talk about it. And... 

Sabrina Lynch: 100%. It's softening what it is, is softening the issue to make others feel comfortable. You can go out and say, yeah, we are all part of the human race. Well, that's evident. That's crystal clear. But when you say that, what you weren't doing then is diminishing the obstacles and the challenges that marginalized communities are facing because you don't have to face them. And then sort of, it's a way of alleviating your own guilt. When you say we are part of the human race, that's all very well. We acknowledge that we're a part of the human race, but you didn't see somebody murdered, or heard of someone being murdered three consecutive weeks in a row that affected your community. 

Joshua Williams: I mean, that's the ultimate white privilege. 

Christopher Lacy: I don't know if people remember this, but what, 15 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, the black professor who's in his own home. That the police went to this man's home and took him out of his own home. And so it's like now, wow you're not actually safe in your own home, because for whatever reason they thought he wasn't supposed to be there. 

 I do want to say this statement relative to the conversation of why the conversation isn't happening. And Sabrina and Josh, I think you, you guys have done such a great job of articulating why that is. And I just want to add onto it and say the conversation is difficult to have, because the way we define racism is twisted. When you look at the definition of racism, it comes from the perspective of the person doing the action. It is telling you what racism has done as a racist. And, if you read the definition, nobody would ever  read it and go, yes, that's me. I practice racism. Instead, it should actually come from the person who's receiving racism. Right? So what does the act of racism make the person receiving it feel like? Right? Because then when people see it that way they go, Oh, Oh, okay. Now  I don't so much have to self identify cause people don't like to have to put a mirror up to themselves, but if they hear the definition in a different way, it becomes much easier for them to talk about, right?  I think we, we have to, as a society, decide that we want to redefine that word so that it comes from the perspective of the person who's receiving it.

Sabrina Lynch: Absolutely. And also an understanding though, of the spectrum of racism. You don't have to say the N word to be a racist, because then that's when people go to the extreme or they go to the other end of the spectrum. And as long as they're not in the other end of the spectrum. Again, I'm going to use that word again, there's a comfortableness because they don't see theirselves as a mirror image of what they've been used to, what racism looks like. You don't necessarily have to say the N word to be a racist. It could even be when you're out with your friends. And again, this could be African American, Native American, Asian American too. And if you've said something for instance, Oh, where are you from originally? Now, your intent is great. But what you've just done is racism because you've made an assumption and prejudice, a prejudiced assumption about that person. Or, I myself have had work colleagues, not where I am now, but what colleagues in previous experiences in previous agencies where I've consulted and worked from, who were the nicest people,  the very same people that were put their fingers through my hair because I have my Afro out without permission. That's racism.

Christopher Lacy: And foolery. 

Sabrina Lynch: I'm not a chia pet.

Christopher Lacy: So I want to ask you guys one final question. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and I want our listeners to walk away with something, which is, if you are a retail brand, if you work in retail and you're a leader in retail at this time, what should be your main focus? What should you really be thinking about as a strategy? Because there is, there should be a strategy around this. Do you guys, either of you have thoughts about what you'd like to see retail brands doing, or if you were asked to come in, what would you tell them that needs to happen? 

Joshua Williams: The word that keeps coming to my mind is listen. I think that brands, especially in our fast paced society, especially in the fast fashion world and where trends are constantly changing is that I do think brands feel like they have to do this also in the way that they communicate and that, you know, you have to post something instantly on Instagram or Facebook. And I know we started this conversation with why haven't they done anything and I'll circle back to that in a second. But, I think this might be a time where brands need to listen actively. So, what I would love to see from retailers and brands is, "we're going to stop assuming things and we're going to start listening "and, and I, and I mean that in the most local way, I think retailers, in particular, have gone through these phases where they've scaled internationally, where there's a Gap on every corner in the world. And it's the same exact experience. There's an H&M, a Zara, you name it and we've lost this connection to the very people who come and support us, our brand buy our products and who engage with our shopkeepers and our store associates. And I think it's time to listen at a local level and for brands to allow the voices, especially the voices from the store to bubble up, because I think we can all attest to the fact that if we are talking about people of color in the fashion industry, they're definitely seen in the stores, whether they're the consumers or they're the store associates, we definitely see that. And if even their voices were part of that, that's rising up into the higher ranks, and that those executives were listening. I think that could, could make a change. And I realize then that once you've listened, then you actually have to act. And I think you have to act and be authentic about it in the sense that there might be retailers and brands that really do need to hold up a mirror against themselves for the whole of their histories, and really think about the systems that they've built that have kept black people out of the boardrooms, out of the executive offices that have kept those voices, those demographics you were talking about out of the conversation, and really start to ask some of those really uncomfortable questions.  But,I would start with, listen, I think this is a moment to listen. I'm on social media a lot, there's part of me that just wants people to stop feeling like they have to do a million things to prove that they're not racist or prove that they, that they're doing everything right. And it's like, you know, watch and listen to the people who are experiencing this, that's where you're going to learn. That's where you're going to feel the empathy. That's where you're going to see the human connection.  hope that that's kind of part of the process or at least something that brands are thinking about. 

Sabrina Lynch: Yeah. I would add to that as well, is don't use it as a listening exercise and not have any tangible action against it. That's where your strategy should be for me. It's how do you define diversity, inclusion within your organization? How does that show up internally for your employees? How do you want it to turn up externally to audiences? And are you doing that? Are you actively looking at protocols, procedures, campaigns, marketing initiatives, data and research that you are sitting on that actually shows the value that you've portrayed and conveyed to the world because you have to be living that 24 seven.

And when it comes to the action is outside of the donations that you may make, outside of bringing someone in internally to help you with that, outside of looking at just the diversity of the workforce and the recruitment. Yeah, diversity doesn't necessarily mean inclusion and inclusion is the word that I feel sometimes gets looked over the most. You have to hold yourself accountable for the promises that you are making through the commitments that you've shared with your audiences and your customers. Are you teaching your employees how they can be allies of their colleagues as well? Have you spoken to your own workforce, or to your audiences on what you could be doing better to be making your output stronger? 

In this time as well that we've seen, unfortunately, the violent protests that that have been turned violent, by certain participants. Are you speaking out about understanding the frustration of where the motivation is coming from? So, you might not advocate it by any means, but at least show that you have an understanding of where the people who are protesting for justice are coming from. That's where you start, and then the rest will fall into place.

Christopher Lacy: I want to thank you both for that.   You know, my final thought in this conversation is change is always uncomfortable because for anything to change, the environment has to go through some sort of extreme for change to happen. And the idea that we as a society ever believed that this change wouldn't happen in an uncomfortable way is also foolish. And we all have seen it coming. There are crisis that are unexpected, that happened. And then there are crisis that, you know, will happen. And this has been something that has really been at the forefront, or should have been at the forefront of, of a lot of people's thoughts who are leaders and they chose to ignore it.

And so now Josh, you said you think that change will come? I absolutely think it will. I just need everyone to understand that it's going to be a painful change because everyone is going to have to re-examine how they engage with the world they are in. 

And last thing to say is, it isn't how about for someone else too succeed it means I don't. We're not crabs in a barrel. The idea is, is that there actually is so much good that is out there. There's so many things that everyone can experience, that we can all be elevated as a universal consciousness. And none of us will feel like we missed out on anything because the beautiful thing is, is that we don't all want the same thing. And I think if that's how people think and we approach this, we absolutely can come out on the other side, but the conversation has to happen. And, and that needs to start with leaders listening as Josh pointed out, and as Sabrina pointed out, it comes with leaders effectively acting. 

So, I have enjoyed this conversation so much. I couldn't have asked to have two better people. join me for this conversation. I do want to give Sabrina and opportunity, Sabrina, if anybody wanted to reach out to you and hear about what you're doing, cause you're doing Ted Talks, girl, you, you're all over the place. So how do they keep up with Sabrina Lynch?

Sabrina Lynch: Go on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn. Sabrina Lynch. I'm happy to make connections with people who are looking for an ally who are looking for knowledge, who are looking for support, or if they just want to be heard. 

Christopher Lacy: Thank you so much. Thank you, Josh, for, letting your voice be heard from, from behind the mic this time.

Joshua Williams: Thank you. 

Christopher Lacy: And thank you to all of our listeners and for any of those out there who want to reach out, who wants to talk more, you can always reach me o n my LinkedIn profile, Christopher Lacy, you can engage with us at Retail Revolutionpodcast on LinkedIn. You can also email me at, C Lacy, L A C Y @christopherlaceyconsulting.com.

Stay safe, everyone.

Joshua Williams: Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution, a very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. Our guests, our students and fellow faculty at Parsons School of Design, especially in such an extraordinary and unprecedented time. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell. Be well, and stay tuned for our next episode.