Transcript - Conversation with Brandon Roe
Joshua Williams: [00:00:00] Retail Revolution is a special limited podcast created specifically for retailing and service design. A unique course that is part of the fashion management graduate program at Parsons school of design in New York city. Each episode features in depth conversations with guest experts in omnichannel retelling.
[00:00:21] With myriad perspectives, technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to the short and longterm challenges and implications of covert 19 and potential opportunities to rethink retail's future retail revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacey, both our assistant professors in the school of fashion at Parsons.
[00:00:47] Christopher Lacy: [00:00:47] Welcome to the Retail Revolution podcast where we discuss all things pertaining to retail and service design. I'm your host Christopher Lacy, and with me today is bestselling author of why fashion brands die and how to save them and hosts of the fashion consumer podcast. Mr Brandon Roe, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:01:07] Brandon Roe: [00:01:07] Thanks for having me, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:09] Christopher: [00:01:09] Yeah. We're on different sides of the world. You're, you're hanging in Austria right now, so, thank you for making the time.
[00:01:16] Brandon: [00:01:16] No worries. No worries at all.
[00:01:18] Christopher: [00:01:18] So I wanted to first, kick it off to you and allow you to really tell our listeners about you and your career trajectory and just how everything came about for you.
[00:01:30] Brandon: [00:01:30] Sure. Well, it's definitely been the opposite of a straight path. For those listeners who, maybe I've spent a little bit time in their career and feel like they haven't really got anything, you might take some inspiration from my story.
[00:01:44] So, I started out approximately 20 years ago in all things computer programming. I was a coder before any of this fashion business or any of the marketing, or any of the consumer stuff, consumer insights, research and all that, I was a computer programmer. And I was doing this at the end of the nineties, it was the .com boom, and like many of my colleagues at the time, I dropped out of school to start a tech company and then the market burst, and from that, I started to learn a little bit about marketing and sale, doing everything I could to try to save my company. At the time, at a certain point, when the market goes against you, there's not a whole lot you can do. And so I pivoted. I learned about marketing sales, and I started to make that more of the focus of my business.
[00:02:34]Fast forward over the next couple of years and I ended up working with clients in 42- 43 different industries in eight countries around the world, bouncing around between what a lot of different really interesting projects. But, the common thread that kind of tied all of those together was that we were always selling to rich people to the wealthy, the luxury. consumer, either directly or through companies that sold to the luxury consumer. And nowadays, I tend to spend a lot of time within the fashion industry. I do still have some projects outside, again, focusing on the luxury consumer, but I spend a lot of time on the fashion. And it's kind of that combination of fashion and luxury that has brought us here today.
[00:03:21] Christopher: [00:03:21] That's a great story. And I want to hold onto one bit of that because you know, for our student population, many of them are already in some area of the industry. But some have come from outside of this industry. And there's that moment where you're in school and you're like, I feel like I need to have a full plan of what's going to happen next to my life.
[00:03:42] And like you, you know, my pack was, was quite interesting. But, how important was it for you to remain open to experiences throughout your career?
[00:03:54] Brandon: [00:03:54] You know, that is a very interesting question. If, if somebody had asked me when I started out, where I would be in 10 years, I would have said at least that early days, so I'll probably be used to computer program still working in tech. That was not the case. it's, it's one of those things where it's just...You have to be open. You never know what's going to happen. I mean, I've lived through the .com crash, the mild recession afterwards, the recession in 2008 /2009 the very slow recovery, and now we're in the Covid induced, hopefully not depression that is going to be kicked off.
[00:04:34] I mean, you have to be flexible as you go through life because, you know, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this, but shit happens it's...maybe bleep that out. I don't know. But, but life happens and you never know where you're going to end up. It's just one of those things.
[00:04:51] Christopher: [00:04:51] It's true. You know, I love that you say that because my thing is always...I'll meet and talk to people and you know, we'll have be having a conversation and as I get to know them, and sometimes they'll say something like, yeah, cause I'm afraid of change. And I'm like, but you're not, you're not afraid of change. It...change is happening every day. Your cells are changing in your body at this very minute. You're not so afraid of it. Like you have to be more adaptable, you know , to understand who you are and who you evolve into. And I think when we talk about evolution, one of the things that that has really evolved is how we define luxury. I mean, in the last five to ten years, we've redefined what luxury is. It is definitely not, you know, dynasty, you know, Alexis Colby sitting there with, with her shoulder pads in that look anymore. Like, that's not how we define luxury. Although I love that look. Will Covid-19 change how we define luxury again, do you think?
[00:05:48] Brandon: [00:05:48] I think in the larger scheme, on the broadest, highest, view, not so much for the simple reason that people still want to buy nice things, and there will always be consumer segments that can and want to buy nice things. Now, on a trend in business level, absolutely. I mean, the last few years have been one of maximalism, but after crises, like the one that we're currently in, the wealthy tend not to want to show off their wealth. There is a certain amount of, you know, it's not seen as proper anymore. And so we go through a minimalistic sort of period. So that's one perspective, that's definitely going to change. The other one is that over the past couple of decades...I mean luxury firms, and this is especially true of the public ones where they have their, their quarterly earnings calls and they have to play that game. I mean, they've been chasing profit and they've been producing entry-level extensions to try to appeal to the aspirational consumer. It's the whole affordable luxury perspective. Now, as we've talked about previously, Chris, I mean, the middle-class was already suffering. This model was starting to suffer and this crisis is likely to accelerate it when you have un, unimaginable...it's hard for us to understand how fast unemployment has increased, and this is not just among the people who are more at risk of unemployment. This is affecting the middle class. This is affecting some white collar workers. I mean, this is making a huge impact in the economy and that will change the luxury business.
[00:07:25] The other one too is just the fact that luxury brands, in particular, they have not been a great acceptor of technology. It is a very traditional, classic business. And they haven't embraced technology like other segments have, including other segments of the apparel industry. And they're going to have to now, because we don't know how long Covid-19 is going to last. It might just be that we're going to have wave after wave after wave until there is a viable vaccine. And if they want to stay in business, they're going to have to adapt to a consumer that they really, at this point, can reach consistently through digital means.
[00:08:03] Christopher: [00:08:03] I completely agree with that, and I think, you know, when we talk about luxury brands and how they use their capital, they use it in terms of let's remodel our stores; let's open another store; maybe let's invest in, you know, a better POS system or a better CRM system. And that's really sometimes what I feel is the extent of how capital is being used relative to technology and store and service design.
[00:08:36]I think there's this opportunity where how can they start using this technology for, you know, textile innovation and supply chain innovation to really look at how their businesses are operating. How can they use technology for transparency, right? Because this new consumer that's coming out, transparency is going to be the biggest thing that I think happens after Covid-19. People are going to want to understand what the process was, of how the clothes or any garments that they're wearing, accessory, what that process looked like before it got to them.
[00:09:10] Brandon: [00:09:10] You know, that is a very, very good point. On one of my podcasts, we interviewed the founder or co-founder of a company in Sweden, I think it was called Ascott, and they do what's called a permanent collection. So, they don't do seasons. They release their clothes, and it has a very sustainability messaging tied to what they do, but they don't use the term sustainability. They do it in terms of transparency and the ability to actually create what we call sustainable fabrics, incorporating sustainable textiles, and you know, they pointed out it is so hard to actually create a transparent solution because it is such an... I don't really like the term old-fashioned, but I'll say it for this purpose of this discussion, old fashioned business, that it is hard to track down all, you know, track all the way from let's say the cotton fields all the way through to sitting on a store shelf. And, that is an area ripe with a potential for technological innovation. And as you say, it is going to be a demand as we come out of this urgent issue that we're dealing with right now.
[00:10:18] Christopher: [00:10:18] Yeah. I mean, do you know when you, when you say old systems. You're absolutely right. I mean, and I think when you look at just the definition of crisis management, it is when you understand that your old system, or way of doing something, no longer applies, and that's absolutely what's happening right now. And so it's, it should be at the forefront of every organization's mind, where it goes, what part of our system is no longer serving us. And how do we, we need to pivot in this moment.
[00:10:53] When we talk about transparency at the compassion and the term that is constantly used with, you know, sustainability. What do you see as the difference based upon geographical location when it comes to this luxury consumer? Or, or do you think that there's really just really the same kind of global, you know, mentality and psychology that's spreading around?
[00:11:20] Brandon: [00:11:20] You know that it's a very interesting question cause there's like a thousand different ways in which we could head with it. one of the things that I've gained from two decades of sales and marketing, to the luxury consumer especially, is the fact that there is really no such thing as the standard consumer. There are various groupings you could do, but everybody is very different. And so on a geographical level, I mean, it makes sense that there's going to be a different response because they're different consumers. It's just mind boggling how many different segmentation strategies you could implement in that. But, I mean, some of the factors that are going to play out as the, as the behavior could potentially change, is number one, how fast individual areas recover. So how fast the economic damage that has been caused by all these shutdowns, comes back. But, also just if the consumer behavior has changed, if it goes on long enough and consumers get stuck in a sense of fear, that will, that will determine how behavior, will, will be affected longterm. The second is just how deep the resulting recession from all of this is likely to be. There are a lot of people right now who seem to think that we'll just bounce back. Like, we'll have this crisis we'll be shut down, everything's mothballed, and then we'll come back. And it'll be like a V shape recession,.And it might, but that's going to be hard. And the easiest way to think about this is, let's say you have a restaurant, and there are 30 people employed by the restaurant, the business owner and the cooks and the servers and all the other people you need to run the restaurant. Well, they've been hit hard. This industry especially has been hit hard by this closure. Let's say they actually closed. They can't make rent, they aren't making enough sales. And so the businesses gone, well, how is that going to affect the local economy?
[00:13:20] Christopher: [00:13:20] Right.
[00:13:20] Brandon: [00:13:20] The staff are going to lose all their jobs. The business owner will lose his livelihood. The suppliers lose a customer, the landlord loses the rental income from the place that was being used for the restaurant, and of course the customers lose a place to spend money. Now, the economy comes back. Let's say that Covid has gone, the economy is starting to improve, but this restaurant is gone. The staff might get other jobs, but that'll take time. The suppliers can find other customers, but that will take time. The landlords can find a new tenant, but that will take time. And so on and so forth. And when this crisis hit, that ripple through the economy. Now multiply that by millions of businesses and you'll get an idea of how long it takes to come back. So, this...we are stuck in a recession. We will continue to be in a recession and a luxury consumer behavior will depend on how long it takes for us to come back, which personally, I don't think it's going to be a V. I think it's going to take time and that will depend on how, on how the luxury consumer behavior changes over the medium to long term.
[00:14:27] The last one is just really how many waves of this. Is it going to be a short term event? Probably not. Once we have a vaccine, you know the game will change, but that is likely to take time. And, so how many waves are we going to experience? How fast does the economy open up, and then have be forced to contract if too many cases come in again. I mean, all of these are factors. The one thing you can be sure about is there will not be a lot of discretionary purchases until the uncertainty, all of this uncertainty we just talked about, I just talked about is, is resolved, But I mean, Chris, what do you think about this being in the, being in the U S and close to the heart of the U.S. breakout?
[00:15:06] Christopher: [00:15:06] I was just about to say, you know, I, like you, I've been reading how there's this idea that there'll be this really quick bounce back. The thought a thought of that exists because everything seems to be such a contrast. You have businesses that aren't hiring and there's no movement. And then on the other side, you have other businesses that are hiring and thriving and I'll come back to. But, you know, to your point, when I see it, I don't see a full kind of recovery and stabilization happening until, you know, 2021 Q3. And that's really because there are things we have to keep especially relative to the fashion and retail industry is... there's a lot of inventory that's sitting out there that nobody knows what they're going to do with it. And for the rest of this year, the probability of anyone, any consumer spinning full price on anything is low, right? So we're going to see far more things being discounted, just to be able to move through inventory to open up, so that, you know, business can start to flow again.
[00:16:18] I also think at the same time this is happening, we will see new multi-millionaires arise out of this, right? Because. There are industries that are doing really well. You know, but I don't know that there's so many that are doing well that we'll see this V-shaped, bounce back, that you, you speak of. And also, like we just mentioned before, the middle class has been so impacted that, we forget how much of the economy they drive, right? Because they're doing things, they're, they're buying things for their children. They're, they're aspirational. They're out there. And so when there's no middle class, it's slows a lot of things down. And to your earlier point, the luxury consumer is going to slow down in how they spend because they don't want to seem as though they are tone deaf to the, to the situations going on in the world.
[00:17:15] Brandon: [00:17:15] Yeah.
[00:17:16] Christopher: [00:17:16] So, so like you, I do see the recovery being slow, and it's really not seeing, you know, kind of relief from it until Q3 2021.
[00:17:27] I do want to ask you as we speak about that though, because that's a lot. You go, okay, well, recovery is not going to be a V shape. It's going to take some time. We've got. People who were multi-millionaires and had money to spend that won't. And then you have a new group that will be able to spend. So if you're a luxury brand, how do you kind of pivot and understand, you know, how do you gain this new group? Because I do think there's an opportunity here. I know that it seems, you know, gloom and doom, but I do think there's an opportunity to attracted a new client the right way, and I'd love to know your thoughts on it, or if you think I'm crazy when I say that.
[00:18:11] Brandon: [00:18:11] No, not at all. Not at all. And I have to say, and it's just a personal pet peeve of mine, when everyone is like, Oh, the sky is falling. The, you know, it's a whole chicken little thing. There's, there's the old lines that never let a good crisis go to waste. And alternatively, whenever there's crisis, there's opportunity, and that that is the case. Whenever there is a massive shift, and shift can be defined as something very, very positive, it can also be defined as something triggered by very negative, war, a pandemic. I mean, there's always opportunities are created. Amazon could not have asked for a better opportunity, ever, then what they have , then what the pandemic has created. Now, there's been issues of course, but I mean, if you look at, people are stuck at home. Amazon has a great, fantastic solution for taking products you see on a screen and getting them to your house.
[00:19:08] And just as a quick aside, and then I'll get back into actually answering your question, but I'm, I'm in Austria right now. Austria is not, generally speaking, Austrians are not the most, they don't embrace technology the way that we might in Canada, where I'm from originally or the United States. It is a very traditional, country. And their businesses reflect that. And so as we went into the crisis, a lot of their businesses were hit flatfooted. They treated in the words of one retailer, they treated that their websites is kind of the, the ugly stepchild. which gives you some insight into how they think of stepchildren, I suppose. But, yeah, it was something that, you know, you had because you had to have it. And that was it. Well, my wife, who is originally from Austria bought some, she didn't want, she wanted to go the non-Amazon route for a change and bought from one of the local retailers, a toy in bookstore, similar to like a Barnes and Nobles would be in the States. And she ordered something for my son's birthday, which has already now passed. And, two weeks after she ordered it, nothing had shown up, not received a single message about any delays. Even though when she bought it, she made sure to buy things that were in stock. There was absolutely nothing. And so she sent an email in to cancel the order because the online function to cancel it wasn't working anymore. And that day they started shipping out stuff. So, clearly somebody got the message and didn't want to have the refund. Contrast that with Amazon where you can order stuff and it still shows up in a couple of days. So for them, this is a great event. This is a huge opportunity for them to expand their market share, and show how good they are at delivering on their promises.
[00:20:54] Christopher: [00:20:54] Really quick, I'm tota-, I'm sorry, because you just said this. I had a meltdown about this yesterday.
[00:21:01] Brandon: [00:21:01] Yeah.
[00:21:02] Christopher: [00:21:02] Because I thought this is a great opportunity for anyone. If you are selling anything and you can sell online, figure this out. Because we've now gotten used to, and it's actually a normal service thing that if I buy something, like I should kind of know, like when it's going to come. And many websites now, and I know this because I've pretty much purchased three different fashionable masks. Don't ask. But, it drives me crazy that you don't know how long anything is going to take to get to you until after you've paid for it. I mean, it's random email. Then they're like, Oh, your order will be processed in five to seven days. And I'm like, does that mean it's coming to me and five to seven days or... like, what does that mean?
[00:21:44] Brandon: [00:21:44] Yes. You know, it's, it's not hard to impress consumers. A lot of businesses, and this is true within the fashion world, this is true outside of the fashion world. They're like, I don't, I don't know. I don't get consumers. I don't know why they're so annoyed. I mean, I don't know how to serve them best. I don't know how to be, I could only compete on price. And I'm like, yeah, price is a, is a factor. Especially in times, like now. But at the end of the day, a consumer will often spend a little bit more money to actually get their stuff delivered when they want it delivered. To actually be informed where they want it. It's not complicated to serve a customer well, just do what you would expect as the consumer. I,
[00:22:24] Christopher: [00:22:24] It's really weird!
[00:22:26] Brandon: [00:22:26] Common sense. But, yeah, to answer your question, I mean, there will be a lot of fortunes, but I don't know if a lot, but there will be definitely fortunes made from this crisis. And this'll be true in things like the gaming of the things that people can do, when they're at home. So gaming, streaming services provided the internet infrastructure doesn't collapse some point, delivering meals, startups, those sorts of things. And if there is, because there is more of a technological bent to it, chances are that these consumers will be quite young. So how do you, if you're a luxury brand, how do you pivot? What do you do to attract and retain these people? Well, there are two main pieces. Number one, is whenever anybody gets rich, that doesn't come from a world of money and they enter that rarefied world of the elite. These are the nouveau riche. They often don't know what they're doing at first anyways. They don't know the rules of the game. There are different rules of the game, and so they need guidance to learn that rule, to learn that world, to learn the rules of this new game and luxury brands that position themselves as the entry point, as a way to help these new consumers learn, will stand out amongst the competition.
[00:23:42] And so that's about not necessarily selling products just for the sake of selling products. This is about solving a problem or fulfilling a need or desire. And oftentimes, when people are newly rich, they buy a lot of dumb stuff at the beginning because they don't, they don't know what the, it's... Consumer society has told us that if you're rich and you want to show it, you buy a fast cars and, and you have, a not a super fancy house that you can show off and you buy all the bling....like, this is what consumer culture. And this is where, when people are new to this world, there's, there's a tendency to buy this sort of thing. Specifically about the youth, I mean, there's nothing really new to say that many other experts in this field and haven't already said. Yes, they tend to like experiences versus the thing, the sake of the thing. They tend to be more comfortable in teaching online. They'll even pay for digital fashion. There is a one, one group that has done very well out of this crisis is a company in Holland called the Fabricant and they create digital fashion. Sometimes digitizing existing brands, fashion, sometimes creating completely new pieces.
[00:24:55] They did one whole couture piece last year for that. Sold digital only. Remember, this is only pixels for it sold for 9,500 bucks. I mean, this is, this is a real market. So this group tends to be more comfortable engaging online and maybe they'll even look at digital fashion. They tend to be, more impulsive, than older demographics, in terms of the way that they make purchases. That's not a good or bad thing. It's just a, a trait that tends to be more common among younger generations. Now, whether or not that's because they're young, or because it's something different about the generation. You'd have to wait until they're old to find out, I suppose. But at this point, the process is more impulsive.
[00:25:37] But, there is one important point to take away from all of this, and that is to be careful about trying to make broad descriptions of any particular generation. At the moment, you have to younger, in quotes. I'm doing quotes on my end of the mic here, consumer groups, you have the millennials and generation Z, but within each group is a huge diversity of consumers. One approach isn't going to work for all of them. They need to be customized usually based on psychographics, that is, how they think, what their belief systems are, how they behave, those sorts of things. And ultimately that means you have to know exactly who your audience is, and that would be the first step, I would say for luxury, for luxury brands, trying to attract this group of luxury consumers. Spend time really, really, really, really understanding who they are and how to connect with someone on an emotional level.
[00:26:27] Christopher: [00:26:27] I love that you said that because I think quite often there's this idea of let's take the easy way. And we do these things in our personal lives, right? So naturally it blows over into, if you're a leader in a business, you, you kind of fall into this trap of, this is what has always worked before, so I'm going to apply the same principle. And so therefore we're going to put people in the exact same groups. And, you are absolutely right. This is the most diverse generation that we're looking at, between millennials and gen Z, that we've ever seen before. And the influence between different groups within that is extremely important. And one of the challenges that luxury has had is its ability to be inclusive. And, when we're looking at this particular pandemic. You know, the thing for me I see is, is wow, you know this, this really shows everybody that it does not care. Viruses, things like this, don't care. They don't care how much money you make. They don't care where you came from. They don't care about your gender or your race or the size of your body. It does not matter.
[00:27:41] I'm wondering, what does a luxury company need to do, a luxury brand need to do, when considering that brand experience, to make their environments far more inclusive than they've tried to before or than they have before?
[00:27:56] Brandon: [00:27:56] Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a good point. This current virus doesn't discriminate. Although there are definitely patterns starting to show up that consumers who, who are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, there's more prevalence because they just can't isolate themselves. They have to go to work because they can't afford not to. But it's also hit Prince Charles and the American ,equivalent of royalty, Tom Hanks and his wife. I mean, it is not something that discriminates. But, as it comes to inclusivity, I mean, generally inclusivity is good business sense. Especially in luxury. It's not a hundred percent required.
[00:28:38]Are you familiar with the fashion brand Stefano Ricci?
[00:28:41] Christopher: [00:28:41] Yes. Yes. And then, so I used to run a store that was his direct competitor called Zilly.
[00:28:48] Brandon: [00:28:48] Oh, very good. So, you know. I was in Vienna years ago, and I was walking down Kaerntnerstrasse. That's the main, the main drag, very wealthy area. And I walked by, Stefano Ricci. That was the first time I'd ever had any interaction with that brand. And I'm looking in the window and I'm like, are there too many zeros, did they mis-label their prices? The price is like a 700 Euro tie? And it's like, that just doesn't make sense! That's...but we actually got one of them in Vancouver, so we have a Trump Tower in Vancouver. Although nobody in Canada likes to call it the Trump Tower, they just call it the tower, the Tower. It's just the tower. But, in the Tower is another Stephano Ricci store. And I actually got to know one of the sales professionals fairly well a couple of years ago. And I asked him about this. I said, you know, you're so highly priced in the market. And he said to me, well, the reason for that is because their customers don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry to be wearing the brand. It's the exclusiveness of the brand, the Veblen good status. The fact that it costs more, and so it must be better. What is the sales strategy? But generally speaking, when it comes to luxury, I mean, it does make sense to have some level of inclusiveness, and for the sake of this discussion, I'm going to focus on inclusiveness as it relates to appealing to different consumer groups rather than necessarily the inclusivity that is the popular trend word right now in many fashion circles.
[00:30:17] So it is good to be inclusive. The trouble is how do we create a brand service experience for multiple luxury consumer groups? And I guess first we should probably quickly define what those consumer groups are because they are very different. When, I wrote the book, Why Fashion Brands Die with Dr. Michael Solomon. He's at St Joseph's, up in in Philly. We referenced the paper from 2010, I think it was, it actually provided a useful model for how to break down luxury consumers in general. And in the case of our book, luxury fashion consumers specifically. And, it's best to think of it kind of like a triangle. So, at the base base you have, the, the proletarians these authors said everything had to be started with a P to make it cool. So, proletarians they're the largest group. They don't play the game at all. They don't have the money and they have no interest in fashion. They'll go to Walmart because they need a coat to cover themselves when it's cool fashion consumer, and they are not your customers before luxury brands. Although, you would be surprised based on some of the messaging that comes out from luxury brands, that's not always clear.
[00:31:27] The next one up on the pyramid are the posers of sorts. These are the people who have the desire to wear luxury brands, but not necessarily the money. Now this, this is the typical aspirational consumer, which we have seen hollowed out so much, especially by this crisis. But, when they buy a brand, they want everyone to know about it.
[00:31:49] The next one up are the parvenue, These are the nouveau riche, these are the ones who came from, maybe they didn't have money or now they have money . Or, they came from money, but a really getting their first taste of wielding the family fortune. And they want everyone to know they have money. And so they like big, expensive, flashy things. And, although it's not always the case, oftentimes, they tend to be insecure about it, and so they try to over compensate.
[00:32:17] And then the top part of the pyramid is the patricians. So, these are people who are secure in their lease status. Maybe they come from money and they were taught as children on how to value money. Maybe they're nouveau riche that have graduated and become more comfortable with it. But either way, they know their elites, they're secure in that fact, and they do still signal to one another, but they tend to do it quietly. And, if you look at some of the most expensive luxury products, they don't look like much unless you're actually schooled in understanding what those products are actually supposed to look like. The brand itself is not so prominent in those circles. But your peers know. A Tom Ford suit might be a good example. The average person is not going to know the fine tailoring that comes with a very high price suit. Or certain time pieces. They don't necessarily look like expensive, whether or not the big chunky gold Rolex that everybody knows is the Rolex. It's the panarai that might be much more refined, but ends up being at a higher price point. Or even the weave of Bottega Veneta, on their, on their bags. I mean, unless you know these brands and you know what they stand for. You as a general consumer don't. And this is how the patricians communicated.
[00:33:29] Now, when you're developing a merchandising strategy, in store, even to a certain degree online, if you want to appeal to the different groups, you have to customize your offerings to each group. And the trouble is that these different groups are repelled by the others.
[00:33:45] Christopher: [00:33:45] That's very true.
[00:33:46] Brandon: [00:33:46] The patricians, it's the patricians hate the loud signals of the nouveau riche parvenue. They just, it, it offends them. The posers are too unsophisticated, and I don't mean that in a good or bad way. I just mean it as the sake of them knowing the space to really appreciate that patricians prefer to communicate quietly and so don't see the value. And in terms of designing a space that can appeal to the different groups. I mean, I personally like the idea of having the, the almost the concept stores or the popup stores inside the larger stores, and then each of those popups can cater to a very specific side of these luxury consumers without necessarily, as a whole, offending other groups.
[00:34:34] Christopher: [00:34:34] I like that entire breakdown because it's, it's so true. And I think about, you know, my career trajectory, I, you know, I worked the world of Gucci, the world of Hugo Boss, Omega Donna, Karen, and, and Zilly, Barneys New York. And when I got to Zealy, I have to tell you, it's really interesting because that was a different experience than I had ever experienced in my entire luxury career because these were jackets, like a jacket was 14,000 right? I love textile cause my first job was was with Armani. And so when I touch something, I'm like, oh, this has made this, like how something feels is extremely important to me. And I remember touching everything and feeling everything. And then when I went to the factories, you know, to, to see it, I mean, it was like 10th generation people who, you know were still making belts, you know, it was wild, right? Like the amount of what went into it and, and the circle. And people were like, are you guys even busy? And I would go, yeah, we are like, it's, it's funny because it's such a subtle busy-ness, you know, the door had to be unlocked for you to come in. They typically called first and said, "Hey, I'm coming by, I only have this much time." You know, the way they shot it was just a completely different group. It was, you know, 1% of the world's population. When you pivot that and you look at like, okay, so a fashion consumer, to your point, like really just only about fashion and that, what does that bling look like. The textile part doesn't really matter to it, like how things touch and I don't, I don't mean that in a general way, but I remember wanting to explain like why something was the way it wasn't, and you're taking them through the way it's made and they're kind of like, yeah, great. I'm one with the bigger, yeah.
[00:36:31] Brandon: [00:36:31] It's like I, as a consumer, I don't get, what's the brand, right? Like, I don't care. Oh, yeah.
[00:36:37] Christopher: [00:36:37] I don't care about your product knowledge. Just, you know...
[00:36:42] Brandon: [00:36:42] You know, it's fun. I, I've been fortunate to not, fortunate enough in my life to have lived through all four. Of the consumer segments. So when I was young, I couldn't care less about fashion. I mean, my grandma took me to Valley Village. Do you have Valley village in the States? Never heard of. That's okay. That's a Canadian. So it's basically like a thrift store. It's a chain of thrift stores. And my grandmother who grew up in the recession or depression, she used to take me there and I didn't care. I mean, the jacket is a jacket. It keeps you, it keeps it cold the way. That's, that was the fashion. And then as I became a...I started my career and became a little bit more successful and had a little bit more disposable income, I kind of moved my way and yes, I bought lots of stupid stuff when I was posing and all the rest of that stuff. That's just how it is. But, I was in a Stefano Ricci store, this is what you're in my early education, and I said to the guy, they had some crocodile travel set. And it was, I don't know, the, the, the carry on and in person, I think like the, the regular suitcase, something like that. And it was like a quarter million dollars for the set. And I'm like, I wouldn't...i, I wouldn't pay a quarter million dollars for set of luggage. I mean, I wouldn't want to get this damage done on the plane. And he...as gently as possible, pointed out how misinformed I was. He's like, this is for people who fly private. I'm like, ah, that makes sense. But different groups, different insights.
[00:38:10] Christopher: [00:38:10] It's funny in that moment, that moment when that happens and you're like, Oh, Oh, okay.
[00:38:17] Brandon: [00:38:17] Yeah. I felt really dumb. I have to say, I felt really stupid. and I learned
[00:38:22] Christopher: [00:38:22] A quick story about, about that. Even though I have a few more questions for you, but just, just because this is great. When I was working for Zilly, there was a gentleman who came in with his wife, and we had a chinchilla bedspread, $92,000 gorgeous bedspread, right? And so his wife says to him, you know, we're, we're fitting him for his made measure suits. And she says to him, I want this, this bedspread. It's amazing. And he says, why do we need a chinchilla bedspread? And her response was, well, because when I throw my coat on the bed, I wanted to land on the same material.
[00:38:59] In that moment, I looked at her and I thought, you're everything I want to be in life, and that rationale is amazing. And he said. Okay, fine. What?!
[00:39:15]Brandon: [00:39:15] And you know that, that, that's the point. We got a lot of people now think that nobody has any money. And that's, that's not the case. People will always have money for things that they care about. And having a happy spouse is probably something that a lot of people care about. So if they want the, you know, the bedspread to match the jacket. Okay. You got the money. Go ahead.
[00:39:37] Christopher: [00:39:37] So when I asked you, you know, just one more really, one more question, which is, you know, as we talk about this and, and, and we've been able to have a fun conversation, I think about consumer behavior and what we can expect. If you were to think of just a couple or a few things that a fashion brand needs to think about to come out on the other side of this, where should, where should their mind be right now? Like, you know, if you're a leader at an organization. Where should you be in your thought process?
[00:40:07] Brandon: [00:40:07] Well, this is a great question because I love telling people what they should do. So this is perfect. Oh, no. In all seriousness.
[00:40:17] Christopher: [00:40:17] Are you a virgo?!
[00:40:21] Brandon: [00:40:21] In all seriousness though, you know, a couple of weeks ago. So I, I have a blog that I also do related to the fashion consumer, or at least I started one in relation to Covid-19 because there was so much negative stuff as the story hit. And, and to be fair, it is a negative story, but at the same point, at the same time, it's, you know, within crisis, can come opportunity and there is going to be a way to get out of this. There is an end point to this and people and things will start returning to normal.
[00:40:53] A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a story. There was in, in our trade press a voice that was advising luxury brands to go into hibernation, and I'm not going to mention names here. I mean people who read it know who I'm talking about and people who didn't, look it up if you want to, if you want to, read the story kind of thing. But regardless, if it was advice to go into hibernation, I would advise the complete opposite. I do not think you should retreat from the market right now because you're going to lose in the market. Somebody is going to take your market share. So yes. Cut down your expenses to the bone, but don't be, I mean, don't be jerky about it, but cut your expenses down. So, cut back production if you need to. But don't leave the marketplace to your competitors. Avoid losing great talent if you can, because replacing them later is going to take longer than holding onto them now. And at the same point, you might not be able to get that talent again. I mean, the best talent is always. In demand and competition is going to take it.
[00:42:00] Don't violate your contracts. We've heard about a number of fashion brands that are refusing to play their suppliers, or if you, some play their rent. I mean, that's just dumb. It's bad PR. It's just bad business. I mean, people remember when you've screwed them over and because of the concentrated nature of the business, they might have to do business with you again, but that doesn't mean they're going to be, not looking over their shoulder the whole time waiting for you to screw them again when times get tough.
[00:42:26] I totally get brands losing lots of money now. I mean, I have personally been responsible for multimillion dollar budgets and bleeding a lot of cash. I mean, this is scary. This is like, you don't sleep at night. You have acid reflux, you can't eat, you can't, you know. It's just, it's crazy. But there's no point in making really dumb decisions because of that fear. So don't retreat. Stay in the market.
[00:42:51] And, and really, which leads to number two, use this time to focus on the proactive. Once you've done your crisis management, start looking towards the future. Find a good way to use this time. Technology, which you've already talked about, is important. You could improve your processes, your marketing and sales processes. You could learn more about the markets you actually serve. We've talked about this and the common theme through a lot of this conversation is understand who you're selling to and what their needs, wants and desires are, and then take your product and use it as a way to, solve these problems or fulfill these needs or desires. But, you've got to know the market first to do that.
[00:43:31] Maybe, and this is not my area of expertise, but I've noticed it a lot with our own clients. See if you can use this opportunity to reduce the complexity of your supply chains. And I know Chris, you could speak a lot more to this than I can. But there is an opportunity there and it's proven how fragile supply chains that reach around the world can actually be when there is a crisis.
[00:43:51] The only other thing that I would recommend, at this point is really communicate with your team everything you're doing. In times of crisis, people look to leadership. They look to their political leaders. They look to their company leaders. They're looking for reassurance, and leaders in brands really need to tell their team what's going on, regardless of whether it's good or bad. If it's bad, tell them how bad it is, but tell them what you're doing to to address it. Because not telling them how bad it is, you know they're going to make up rumors anyways. They're going to guess because they hear what's going on. If things are going well, definitely share that. Even small victories at this point are critical to, to help fight back some of the craziness that, that we have to deal with. I get this as hard for a lot of people, but communication is key.
[00:44:52] Christopher: [00:44:52] I appreciate you so much for, for ending on that...communication is key because it's really difficult for people to navigate through fear and anxiety. And if you are a leader in an organization right now, you have to be able to communicate your people in your team through the fear. And you have to be the beacon of light that gets them through the fear and the anxiety. And there are things that they won't be able to control in their personal life, but you have to be able to help them through it on their professional trajectory. And so the thing that I think is weird, and you and I both have clients, you know...I think the running thing through this, why I've been asked to assist so much with different clients is because they're like, what do we need to do? And as I'm talking to their teams, they're like, we don't know what they're doing. We have no idea what our leadership is doing or what the plan is. And I'm like. wow, this is so funny. This is like the easiest thing. Communicate. Right? So, you know, I appreciate you ending with that as the number three, because I think that's the most important.
[00:45:56] So Brandon, this has been an awesome conversation. I have to tell you, I, I've had a great time and could probably talk with you for another hour or so.
[00:46:04]Brandon: [00:46:04] Only an hour?! I thought it was a whole day thing.
[00:46:09] Christopher: [00:46:09] Well, alright, I need like a couple of cocktails though.
[00:46:13] Brandon: [00:46:13] Hey, next time we meet in your area, how's that?
[00:46:17] Christopher: [00:46:17] Done.
[00:46:18] Brandon: [00:46:18] We can go to restaurants.
[00:46:20] Christopher: [00:46:20] Well, I might well, at this rate, if, if, if Austria has already opened up, I might come to you.
[00:46:24] Brandon: [00:46:24] Well there you go.
[00:46:26] Christopher: [00:46:26] So how do our listeners, you know, stay informed of what's going on with you? You have a lot happening, you have a lot of great information, and I think that, you know, they want to hear what, what, what Brandon Roe is up to.
[00:46:38] Brandon: [00:46:38] Sure. So to learn more about the book, I mean, you can always put this into Google as always, Why Fashion Brands Die. That's the name of it. The website is whyfashionbrandsdie.com. Easy enough. And the Fashion Consumer, the podcast, and the blog and the articles and all of that side of things is just the fashion consumer.com or of course, just put it into Google and, and you'll find it.
[00:47:05] Christopher: [00:47:05] Fantastic. Brandon, I appreciate your time. I hope you and your family stay healthy and safe and I look forward to talking to you again soon.
[00:47:13] Brandon: [00:47:13] Very good, Chris. Thanks very much. It's been a real pleasure and a lot of fun.
[00:47:17] Thank you, Brendan.
[00:47:22] Joshua Williams: [00:47:22] Thank you for listening to this episode of retail revolution, a very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. Our guests, our students, and fellow faculty at Parsons school of design, especially in such an extraordinary and unprecedented time. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell, Be well, and stay tuned for our next episode.
