Transcript - Camilla Olson
Season 4, Episode 13
Conversation with Camilla Olson
Joshua Williams: [00:00:00] Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in depth conversations with guest experts in omni-channel retailing with myriad perspectives, technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current sociopolitical issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail, as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future.
Visit RetailRevolutionPodcast.com for more information, including full transcripts. And follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn @RetailRevolutionPodcast. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are assistant professors in the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design.
Christopher Lacy: [00:00:47] Camilla Olson is a serial entrepreneur with passion and curiosity. Those attributes led her to successfully completing her undergraduate degree in microbiology and advanced degrees in business and fashion design. Her career has covered electron microscopy, venture capital, predictive modeling, her own fashion e-commerce label and now she is the CEO and co-founder of AI retail technology company, Savitude.
Being the revolutionary that she is, Camilla holds two patents, four patents pending, fought in the tech crunch battlefield, launched her label on the runway of Lincoln Center during New York fashion week and saw her designs worn at the MET and LACMA Galas as well as the White House.
Today, Camilla joins me to talk about how predictive modeling can change how we approach design to build inclusive, ethical, and profitable business models.
I'm Christopher Lacy, and this is Retail Revolution podcast.
Hello, Camilla. Welcome to the show.
Camilla Olson: [00:02:06] Hi Christopher. How are you doing?
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:08] I am fantastic. I am beyond excited to have this conversation with you because it's going to blend a lot of things together that I care about and I could not think of a better way for us to finish out our conversations this season than having this talk with you.
Camilla Olson: [00:02:24] Thank you.
Christopher Lacy: [00:02:25] So Camilla, first, if you could briefly talk about your career trajectory into this space because you have quite an interesting background that I don't think most people would have thought, "well, she'll end up in fashion design."
Especially since I spent my entire life saying I didn't get the fashion gene. And I didn't get the art gene. So this is a big surprise to everybody who knows me.
I bet. What led you to it?
Camilla Olson: [00:02:58] Well, I grew up in a, in a household where we made clothes because we had to. And so I had some skills sewing. And then during the dot com bubble, I developed a really bad Chanel habit. And then the bubble burst and I couldn't have that habit anymore. And so I thought, Oh, I'll just pick up my sewing habits again and try and make my Chanel jackets. So, I actually thought I could do that. So, I tried over a few years to make several jackets and I failed utterly; hated the quality and the style of what I was sewing. You just can't do it. Right? But I was too naive to know that from the get-go.
And so, while I was doing that, my daughter was in junior high and she got interested in what I was doing, started sewing herself and decided she wanted to be a fashion designer. And I knew that that was the worst thing in the world that she could do, and we ended a big fight about it. And so, to call her bluff, I took her to a local open house at the fashion school in San Francisco at the Academy of Art University, expecting her to be horrified and decide, "Oh, I can't possibly do that." Well, the joke was on me because I enrolled.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:09] That's amazing.
Camilla Olson: [00:04:13] So, I thought here's how I can figure out how to make those jackets. And this looks like a really cool place. And I fell in love with it, and I thought it was going to take a couple classes until they figured out, I didn't know what I was doing. But I ended up graduating at the top of the class and did really well. And I, I just loved every minute of it.
Christopher Lacy: [00:04:34] As I mentioned earlier, you really are an entrepreneur and you've done tons of things throughout your career. But what I want to talk about with you today is where you are right now. And the past is phenomenal. And, and we'll touch on that a bit, but I want to ask you about your newest venture, which is Savitude.
Camilla Olson: [00:04:55] Savitude provides inclusive fashion technology for brands who want to serve a broader audience. So, how did we get here is when I had my fashion label, which was the natural outcome of going to school, I discovered the fit problem, because I didn't learn that in school. And I tried for years to understand fit. And to me, in my mind, after many years of studying it and working with private clients, it clearly was a body shape issue that you just couldn't take size and match it onto people; that you had to look at body shape. You had a match it with the silhouettes, the right silhouette and the right design details. To me, that was the only logical conclusion.
So, I first thought, well, if consumers could think like fashion designers, like I could, then they would make better choices and there would be fewer returns because they would be much happier with their clothing. Because people generally really liked what I made them try on.
And so we made a recommendation technology and we improved an 11% lift. But when we looked at the details we found that there were too many places or too many people were there just weren't enough clothes to recommend for them. Or in many cases, there was no clothes to recommend to help them look better. Because, in fact, designers had not been designing with their body shape in mind. And so that, that was really frustrating. At first, the reaction was what are we going to do? How are we going to satisfy this retailer and solve their problem of helping to sell something that this person? Then it became really an ethical conflict. And then we realized we just can't continue to offer this product. Because it just wasn't really efficacious. And that we really had to go back into development and create a tool to help designers solve the design problem of designing for all body shapes. And that's what we did. And that is this inclusive fashion technology that we are now talking about.
Christopher Lacy: [00:07:03] This AI technology that's being used in this way. What I really love about it is it's really focusing on the design process. And I think when we talk about ethical fashion and we talk about sustainability from the business perspective of mitigating returns, we kind of look at it in a backwards way. And what you're doing, is you're going, if we can start this at the actual design process and how we rethink it, we'll change the industry. And when you were doing this data and you were looking at it, what did you find? Like, I know one of the parts is that you kind of started with looking at runway shows and what went down the runway. But what did you find from the methodology that designers were applying to their approach that was hindering the success of retailers, really? Like, why was this disconnect? Because you think that everyone would realize that there are different body types. So why was there this kind of like set idea, did you find?
Camilla Olson: [00:07:59] Well, it's the process. And it's something that I'm really, really empathetic to, because I was in those shoes for five years. I designed collections with my team for five full years and halfway through we tried to expand the silhouettes that we offered. And, and that was really hard actually to do that. So I, it has to do with bandwidth on the designer, because the design process that I was taught is that you create a story. You have an inspiration, you think hard about that. You put together your book of images and I'm, I'm very imaging, based person. And you translate those images into clothing. And so once you're really into the story and your images and how you're going to put those into clothes, to add into yet another degree of freedom of silhouette, and I've got to do body shapes. It's like too much. I mean, the brain just can't handle all of those degrees of freedom, I don't think. And you've got a hourglass dress form in front of you and you've got a system that has fit models, who have a certain shape. And so the system isn't set up to do it broader and do it differently is very, very hard.
And then the other thing is that you have buyers who are used to looking at certain things. For example, when I started my label, I did everything as a size 10, because I thought, okay, I'm going to be inclusive and do that. But buyers wouldn't even look at it. And they said, I don't know how to process this because I'm used to looking at a four or six. So, I don't even know if I like what you're making. So, there's a system that's in place, that's used to a different path and then they're not used to this. So, one is bandwidth and one is the system.
Christopher Lacy: [00:09:46] That's really interesting. There was actually even an article I want to say two weeks ago. And it was how to design better for plus size women and people. And it really is still, I mean, it's wild, it's 2021 and we still can't get it right.
Camilla Olson: [00:10:02] Right. And then when you talk to designers that change it. They are reluctant. I just finished this program in Milan that's focused on luxury. And literally people say, you know, you can't not approach the designer with the technology we're using because they get their inspiration from God, right? And that's, that is a quote. And you just can't have that conversation. And in the rest of the world, they have their process. So, it's really hard to make changes in the design studio.
I find it easier to talk about the merchandiser as a place to make these changes. Because they go further; they look at the retail side as well as, there's a link between the consumer and the designer. So, they, they know there is a problem, but they, to my understanding don't know how to fix it. And so, we're trying to explain to them, here, we have a way to fix it, and we actually figured out where, and at the right times when they can fix it, because there is an opportunity when they can do that, without getting under the skin of the designer, so to speak. You know, everyone maintains their role to fixing it.
Christopher Lacy: [00:11:16] Yeah. And I think to that point, there's the two sides of the industry, right. It is the creative side and then it is the, we have to generate revenue side. Right. I would love to hear from you, like, what you found in the numbers. Like I would say, you know, me being that business side and looking at it and going, "Oh wait, we're missing out on this much volume possibly, or this much revenue. We, we definitely need to make changes." And have you discovered something around those numbers, like what could they gain by using this really?
Camilla Olson: [00:11:48] Yes. Well, we looked at the runways. So first we looked at fall 2019 and I tried to get this published. I wrote to the Business of Fashion; they wouldn't respond to my inquiries.
Christopher Lacy: [00:12:00] We will publish it on our blog.
Camilla Olson: [00:12:03] Thank you. And, and I wrote to Vogue, they didn't respond. I went to Shoptalk. They wouldn't respond. No one would publish this. I think it was just sort of you know, too hot, a topic or something. So, we did it again for spring 2001, and then we did it for every season, going back to spring 2016. We looked a every look that walked the runways that is reported on Vogue.com, going back to spring 16. And we have looked at what's the predominant body shape body type that, that look will flatter. And we looked it at a 70% to a 90% confidence level. And then I examined them, what the results were and compared it to what we understand to be the U S distribution of body shapes.
When you look at that, the interesting thing is over the five-year period on the body shape. it's like exactly the same, you know, I overlaid the data for every season, spring and fall. And it's like, it's the identical graph. There's no variation. Very, very little variation. I was really surprised at that.
For body torso, there's a little variation, except for spring 16, there is a variation in expected waistline where it becomes a little closer. It does vary just for this one season. And then shoulders vary quite a bit. So, you're seeing a lot of difference. I'm getting too much detail here, but go answer your question exactly, when you look at the difference between what is walking down the runway, which really is a precursor of what the available supply might be, comparing that to the distribution of the population, there's a gap. What I have equated to about $120 billion, I call it the inclusivity gap or an opportunity that we're leaving on the table.
Christopher Lacy: [00:14:08] I'm sorry, I'm going to need you to say that one more time for the cheap seats in the back. How much was that?
Camilla Olson: [00:14:14] It's a $120 billion opportunity that's a lost. That's, that's just completely lost. Because these are people who cannot find clothes to fit their body. And I'll explain why in a sec. And there's also the reverse, where the number of people who are being overserved. We believe that's, what's going into the landfill. So, one might say, Oh, well, those clothes can fit the people who are being underserved, except those clothes, those are clothes that are designed for inverted triangle or top hourglass women. So, women who have larger busts, right, narrower waist and narrower hips. The people who are underserved are oval and diamond shape. They have larger tummies compared to their hips or bust. Those clothes are not going to even go around the diamond and oval shape women.
Do you follow what I'm saying?
Christopher Lacy: [00:15:13] I do. I, my silence is more because I think my head just exploded a bit because what you've really just presented here is a lot of our problems with why we have so much excess, garbage, textile wise in different places. And we talk a lot about sustainability, is maybe if we approach the inclusivity angle, then we'd fix it because you'd be able to control your stock in a much better way.
Camilla Olson: [00:15:44] Yeah. So, my hypothesis is, and this is, you know, coming from the cheap seats on the back, is that the designers are focusing on hour glass shape that comes from the dress forms that we have and the, perhaps trophy wives that they're serving as private clients, because those are the ones that are really overserved, those body shapes. And the rest of us are really suffering.
Christopher Lacy: [00:16:10] That is really interesting. Okay.
So, so if you are a new designer or you're a larger company, I actually want to ask about the, the Savitude platform in and of itself. Is it accessible for someone who's a designer who's just starting out, or is it really kind of designed for an organization that it's creating tons of merchandise? Or can a young designer who's like, you know what, I, I want to change the system. Can I access this information and be able to use Savitude?
Camilla Olson: [00:16:54] Honestly, to be used well, it should be used by a fashion designer of any level of training, someone who understands how to use inspiration well and trend together. And somebody who has a strong brand DNA, you'll get the best results. And that's how it's built. But the interface was designed for a consumer to use it in an on-demand application.
Christopher Lacy: [00:17:21] Oh, really?
Camilla Olson: [00:17:22] Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: [00:17:23] And so how would that work from the consumer perspective?
Camilla Olson: [00:17:28] So, we actually have it in an installation in the Meatpacking District with Gerber Technology as the front end of their workflow of on-demand, made-to-measure system. That goes from, by now to a sound product in one hour. And so, what we can do in this iteration is we took them from 81 SKUs to well over 10,000. And it feeds right into a 3D printer. So, this is made-to-measure.
Christopher Lacy: [00:18:00] Interesting.
And when you discuss body types, just so it's in perspective for everyone, when I recognize this, it was eye opening to me. I think most of us, we think about body types and we're like, "Oh, there's probably like, you know, six to eight body types that are out there." But you found that there are a lot more than that. And what, what is that number of body types that are out there that can be designed for?
Camilla Olson: [00:18:26] Well, the shocking part of it is it's 729, but it sounds reasonable when you figure out how we built up to that. So, there are nine clear body shapes. And then four key proportions height, weight, torso, and shoulders. I mean those I found to be the most critical impacts on my patterns when I had my blocks, when I had to adjust them for an individual.
And so that's how we came up with our 729. So, we have three different versions of each of the four key proportions. So, I do the math at 729.
Christopher Lacy: [00:19:08] Impressive. So, I want to ask you about this because you, you made the comment of really, what you're able to do from the consumer perspective is a made-to-measure approach. And we've spoken with a few people on the show about bespoke and it's something that is definitely going to cost far more than fast fashion. As you kind of look out at where the industry is going, where consumers are going, do you think that we'll finally start to see this shift back to that it's made for me. I care more about it. More to your point where you were like, you grew up making your clothes, right? Like, that was very much cherished. And if we'll finally get to that place, if we can make it more accessible.
Camilla Olson: [00:19:57] I think for some people we will be doing that. I don't think it's going to be for everybody.
Christopher Lacy: [00:20:03] Really?
Camilla Olson: [00:20:03] I don't think everyone would be able to afford it. And not that it's going to be that much expensive, but I think there will always be a fast fashion component. But I'm hoping that fast fashion will get smarter.
Christopher Lacy: [00:20:14] Well I guess if they use certain technologies and this is really about using data at its best. Right? I think, when we talk about data, a lot of times there's a lot of data out there that people don't know how to use it.
Camilla Olson: [00:20:28] Right. So, I've looked at some numbers at what it costs to do on-demand. I'm not an expert on this, but I do talk to some people who are in this business who are setting up businesses doing this. And I mean, I'm a full proponent of this. But if you look at the on-demand cost comparison side by side of doing it here in this country versus somewhere else and where you're making 30% more, you’re paying next to nothing in underpaid and children, whatever to sew it out. And they were paying all the shipping and transportation to get them here. You compare those costs, you'll see that it is a lot more sustainable to have it made here. So, the numbers do compare well. But the one number that isn't really spoken about is that the sell price is full price. And so the consumer doesn't necessarily gain from that.
Cause right now the consumers really benefiting by buying things really cheaply. And so here, I'm advocating not for buying a whole lot of clothes and rolling over them quickly, but I'm advocating for the person who can't really afford to buy clothes. It's going to be really hard for them.
Christopher Lacy: [00:21:42] Right.
I've talked about that a lot hear it.
So, I want to ask you about your work in an area called biomimicry. I'm really into this.
Okay. Can you tell our listeners of, cause I don't want to ruin it by explaining it in a non-scientific way. Biomimicry, what is this for everyone?
Camilla Olson: [00:22:11] So, that piece on our website is, I put that there because I thought it was a cool example of an inspiration that we had used in my fashion label for fall. Well, I forget what year it was. But it was a favorite season of mine. I love the clothes that came out of that season. But biomimicry is where real-life mimics what happens in biology. And you know, so you can go into the microcosm of biology and see beautiful structures, beautiful art. And so a lot of our artwork, as it turns out, really resembles a lot of things that we discover in the sub microscopic world. For example, a beautiful piece of biology is something called diatomaceous earth, otherwise called diatoms. And they're made out of a silica skeleton and they come with beautiful, beautiful shapes, geometric shapes that we all have grown up seeing different kinds of geometric shapes, but they're all replicated or originated here in diatoms. But when the first artists drew them, they obviously hadn't seen diatoms, but here, now that we have microscopes, we can realize that we as humans have created the same kind of geometric form that someone created in this diatom. So, that's what bio mimicry is.
Christopher Lacy: [00:23:49] I love the example you used. So, for everyone listening, I actually know about diatomaceous earth because I consume the food grade version of diatomaceous earth. And here's just a little health segment for you. If you want to cleanse your system, you can drink diatomaceous earth daily and the silica actually cleanses your blood. So, there we go. Please only do the food grade. There is another version of diatomaceous earth, which you can put around your home, if you have pets and you're trying to keep out insects.
Camilla Olson: [00:24:20] I had no idea. This is great. So, diatomaceous earth is also the reason that they were the white cliffs of Dover in England.
Christopher Lacy: [00:24:31] Really?
Camilla Olson: [00:24:32] Yeah. That's all Diatoms.
And, and for everyone listening, we've just shown you how fashion is involved in everything.
Christopher Lacy: [00:24:41] So Camilla, can you tell our listeners, how can they keep up on what you're doing? What's happening at Savitude. And honestly, get this cool information, this data that helps them make some decisions in the future. How do, how do they keep up with you all?
Camilla Olson: [00:25:00] Well, our website is www.Savitude S A V I T U D E.com.
And do you know what Savitude stands for?
Christopher Lacy: [00:25:12] That's was my next question for you. Tell us.
Camilla Olson: [00:25:15] It's savvy attitude.
Christopher Lacy: [00:25:17] Nice.
Camilla Olson: [00:25:18] Yeah. So, on the social channels where either Savitude or SavitudeAI.
Alright.
Christopher Lacy: [00:25:26] Which now means because you explained what it is now. I can't use it on my dating profile. Can I, do you mind if I use it borrow it just for personal profile.
Camilla Olson: [00:25:36] You go right ahead because I won't be.
Christopher Lacy: [00:25:41] Camilla, I thank you so much for joining us today. This was really exciting for me. I love seeing how we're using and developing technology to really further the fashion industry in a way to be more inclusive, ethical, and sustainable from, from a business model perspective. And I hope you keep up doing this great work.
And, and more people hear about it.
Camilla Olson: [00:26:05] Thank you so much, Christopher. I really appreciate you participating in that effort.
Christopher Lacy: [00:26:10] Absolutely!
Camilla Olson: [00:26:11] Was lovely to talk with you.
Thanks.
You take care. Thank you.
Bye.
Christopher Lacy: [00:26:15] Bye bye.
Joshua Williams: [00:26:20] Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. If you'd like to support the work we're doing, please visit our show page at RetailRevolutionPodcast.com and click on the donate link. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell.
Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.
