Transcript - Nigel Barker
Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution is a special, limited podcast created specifically for "Retailing and Service Design," a unique course that is part of the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design in New York City. Each episode features in-depth conversations with guess experts in omnichannel retailing, with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to the short- and long- term challenges and implications of COVID-19, as well as opportunities to rethink retail's future. Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are Assistant Professors in the School of Fashion at Parsons.
Christopher Lacy: I am your host, Christopher Lacy, and welcome to another episode of Retail Revolution podcast. Please be sure to subscribe to Retail Revolution on your preferred streaming platform. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and TuneIn. You can also access our blog, transcripts and previous episodes at RetailRevolutionPodcast.com.
Today, we have internationally renowned photographer and judge on the hit TV series America's Next Top Model and The Face. And his new show, Top Photographer, which garnered rave reviews, has been renewed for a second season.
But today we have him here to talk about philanthropy, authenticity, and the role of brands and building communities. Nigel Barker, thank you for joining us today.
Nigel Barker: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
Christopher Lacy: Awesome. So, Nigel, what is going on in your world right now? Tell us about your current projects. What's happening?
Nigel Barker: Well, I think like most of us, a lot of things have either been postponed or somewhat ground to a halt in many ways. Although I am remaining to be busy. I mean, obviously the coronavirus and the quarantine effects production in television and in photography enormously. You know, but what was interesting, I guess for us was how we were able to continue to try and work and do certain projects even despite the situation. And certainly, now things are picking up. But, one of the things that we were able to do for some of our clients is, be sent product to shoot at our house at our home, and to sort of create campaigns without the sort of studio or building a studio in, in the house or in the garden or in the environment that I had around my property. I live upstate New York.
And so we were able to sort of tick along and still create content for a lot of our clients. One of the big things that I do and have done for many years now, is creative consult for lots of different businesses in general. And, you know, and I've worked with companies as diverse as Sony, Marriott; I helped launch the AC hotels, which was the first European brand that Mary ever brought to the United States. And, I opened the first couple of hotels and became a brand ambassador with them, doing everything from helping them with the actual curation of the library, which is in every single AC hotel; to the photography on the walls to the video content as you go into the rooms; to the fact that I even have an Nigel Barker suite at the AC hotel that you can stay at, if you can believe that. Whoever that was going to happen?
Christopher Lacy: That's really cool.
Nigel Barker: Pretty cool. You know, pretty fun, pretty fun to say the least.
I got actually a friend, a good friend of mine, who I went to school with, his name is Tom Aster. And I actually do a podcast with him. But his great grandfather is Waldorf Astor. And of course, the Waldorf Astoria is named after him. So, we have this ongoing joke that he and his grandfather may have a hotel named after him, but I actually have a room named after me, and I'm still alive. So, there you go!
So, I forced him to stay in it before, which he's absolutely furious about it. Anyway...
Christopher Lacy: I think I have a new goal by the way, for my next five-year plan.
Nigel Barker: There you go. There you go. So, you know, there were lots of different things, lots of different projects.
I've worked in and do work in the furniture space and design space.
One of the things that I sort of tried to do, and I'm obviously I'm known as a photographer, and worked on television. So, people know me from that. And what happens also often--and, you know, I was interviewing a guy called Chase Jarvis the other day, and he's also a photographer, but what he really is is an entrepreneur. And that's really probably a better description for me too. It's easier to be known for something that is tangible like photography and to make your name there, but that doesn't stop you from writing books, or executive producing shows of your own, or designing furniture, if that's what you're doing next.
And, you know, and I actually have now a project with Thursday Boots, a great shoe company. I'm actually working on my own line of shoes with them.
Christopher Lacy: I own six pairs of Thursday boots.
Nigel Barker: Ah, so there you go. Perfect. Fantastic. You see, it's one of those brands which has just done unbelievably well and people know about them, but every time I mention Thursday Boots to someone and I say things like this brand called Thursday Boots, people always say, oh yes, I have a pair. I mean, literally every time. And I'm like, okay, well, you see, that is market penetration right there, considering you only have one store. It's really quite something.
Christopher Lacy: They've done a great job. I mean, I have to say, from a New Yorker's perspective, they are the most comfortable I'm-running-around-the-city-but-still-look-really-cool boots ever.
Nigel Barker: Absolutely. And they're very, very, just, you know, on the backend that attention to detail is extraordinary. And the process of designing a collection of boots and shoes takes a long time. People often think, well, I guess in certain collaborations, one can just go in and put your name on something and somebody else does it for you, but that's not the way I like to work or operate. And certainly, as a creative myself, you know, every aspect of how the sole is made the shape, the look, the feel; what are our options in every aspect of the stitching and the laces and what that effect that makes to the boots. And whether it's got a steel toe cap or whether it hasn't, and you see someone like myself wears boots a lot, because as a photographer, I'm on my feet a lot, I'm in situations where I'm working in fields , then I'm in a studio, which has a concrete floor and I'm outside scrambling around; I'm on my knees shooting, taking pictures and your shoes and boots get scuffed up. So, I need a type of a shoe, a boot that's really quite hardy. And so that's why this sort of relationship came. And I, like you, bought some boots of theirs. And then I was photographed shooting and they saw them on me and said, oh, those are ours, aren't they? And then this relationship sort of started. So, it was quite brilliant.
Christopher Lacy: When I used to go to the factory series for Gucci and see how shoes were made.
I remember thinking, oh my gosh, thank God shoes are not as much as they should be for what goes into making them.
Nigel Barker: Hmm.
Were you blown away by the design process? It's really cool.
We're not even done yet. To be honest. We're still tweaking and adjusting. And because as you know, something that wraps around something like your foot, like a glove, I mean, we've all tried on gloves and if a glove doesn't fit right, if it isn't literally just right, it's very annoying. It's actually quite uncomfortable and it can even be irritating, right? Cause you to have blisters and stuff like that. And so, that's the sort of attention to detail where if you make one little tweak, if you change the cut, if you, if the leather is actually put down, or the fabric is put down at a different angle, so the actual stitching or the weave is in a different way, then the stretch is different and it completely affects the way the shoe bends and moves. So, there's so many different elements. You can't just say, well, I want to do this, or I want to do that. So, I've learned a lot too, and you know, my history, my background, as a kid, when I was at a sort of high school, I studied fashion design, weaving, pattern cutting. and I didn't even study photography. So, it's actually funny. My background is in fashion design.
Christopher Lacy: Wow. Very cool. So, it comes full circle for you?
Nigel Barker: It comes full circle. You know, I never, I was studying biology, chemistry, physics, and maths as a kid and my parents as do most parents, if you study those sorts of subjects, want you to become a doctor or something like that. And, you know, that's really the, where I was headed. I took on, in my free time, studying fashion design, weaving pattern, cutting and so on and so forth. And I was in a class of 24 girls and me and, most of my friends were like, what are you doing? My father as well. What on earth are you doing? Why are you in that class? You're wasting your time. You should be studying or doing some other sports. And I played rugby and my rugby friends as well were like, what on earth are you doing fashion design for goodness sakes? And I said to them, you know, my father, I would say, well, you know, I'm learning to stitch really well. So, when I become a surgeon and potentially a plastic surgeon, I'm going to have the best technique down. I'm going to know all, and he was blown away. He's like, Oh my goodness, what a brilliant idea. I never even thought of that. Of course. How else would you learn? And, you know, so I convinced him, although that was not really my aim at all.
And my rugby friends. I'm like look guys, there's 24 girls and me. The odds are good. Okay. It's a lot better than the rugby team. So, they all laughed. And what have you, but I got the nickname, “Neezhay by Nige,” which was just meant to be, sounded like a fragrance from Paris. And so my guide, the rugby guys would call me “Neezhay by Nige,” which we all thought was rather funny at the time. Yeah.
Christopher Lacy: You said earlier that you are an entrepreneur and you are, and really that's how we should think of you. But I think when I was, really engaging about having this conversation with you, what I realized is that you are a true humanitarian. Your philanthropic work has just been phenomenal. Between Make-A-Wish, Girl Up; you've traveled to Haiti, you've done work there. I mean, you've really done this as part of your personal brand. So, it wasn't just about you being an entrepreneur and being out there and, and you do a collaboration or being a designer, there was another part of you that said this is important to my brand.
How did that come about?
Nigel Barker: You know, I don't think of myself... I mean, obviously you're right, when you say brand. One doesn't think of oneself as a brand. Okay. And I think if you do, you probably got problems. But if you think of yourself as a person, first and foremost; one becomes a brand. And certainly, if you look at whether it's a Tory Burch or Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, these are people, but brands, right? But it sort of comes from their own personal style and who they are. And any brand, and I tell people this all the time, if you, care about what you wear, what you eat, then you know, then you should care about what the brand stands for, not just what they make. Right? So, what they do?
And I can tell you, it all started for me when I started to have children. And, you know, I remember we’d just had my son Jack and Make-A-Wish, it was right in the heart of Top Model success, you know, and it was a really, really big show. One of the number one show, I think on prime time. And I got a call from Make-A-Wish and they said to me, you know a young girl, it was actually three young girls--there's one in particular in this story I'm about to say very quickly--that have wished to be a model for a day. They've asked if you would be the photographer. They would like to be America's Next Top Model for a day, and I was incredibly honored, and I thought, wow, this is going to be fun. And I've never done anything like this. And of course, I'd heard of Make-A-Wish. And I was aware of what their mission was, but I was also a young, kind of thirties year old man, and, you know, in the prime of everything he was doing, and on television and exciting. And, you know, perhaps I was more selfish, more inward looking and just what I needed and wanted. And I really was unaware. And I'm setting this up because I do believe that sometimes one gets carried away with oneself; and I feel that, you know, I was maybe at that point in my life, because I was very focused on my own career. I was very focused on becoming a success and doing whatever it took.
And this was something which was a step out. This was doing something for somebody else, which obviously I was delighted to do, but I hadn't necessarily done much of it until then. And I remember there was one girl, Nicole, Nicole Mueller, who was 14, had had leukemia had had lot of surgery. And one of her arms was really very wizened. She had a very nasty scar on her back of her arm and down her back and she was wearing this dress and she was standing in front of me. And, she stood there with sort of her arm all withered, right at the camera and the other side of her body was "quote unquote" sort of perfect, if you like. No wizened arm. Looked very normal. But she stood with her with her sort of wizened-arm side next to me. And she had this most extraordinarily beautiful face with huge eyes and big, big eyes. And you could see both the fear, but the courage at the same time, the bravery. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, the sweet thing. I'll take a couple of shots of her this way round, and then I'll turn her around and I'll shoot you the sort of perfect side. Cause that's the pretty side. That's the side she's going to want to see. That's the side that, you know, where you don't see the damage. And how naive was I? How wrong was I?
She stood her ground. I said to her, after a couple of frames, I'm like, okay, Nic, Nicole. That's brilliant. Now turn around. And she looked at me; she's 14, tiny little thing, but these huge big eyes. She just looked at me and said, actually, Nigel, if you don't mind, I'd rather just stand on this side because...and she looked at her arm and she looked at me and she said, this is me. This is my story. This is who I am. And this is why I'm here. And it was at that moment that the definition of beauty for me was completely changed. Completely turned on its head. And I suddenly realized, here was someone who was on television, telling people about beauty and style. That actually God how wrong I had it and that we are of course, the sum of our imperfections. And I, listen, for all of you out there who are saying, well, of course, for goodness sakes, I knew that already. I really didn't properly know it, I don't think. And I, it was a huge wake up call for me and I don't. I was, I tell you at that moment, it was my wish that was granted, as much as it was hers.
And we became great friends actually. And I knew her all her life. Very sadly, she passed away at the age of 22. And, having gone to FIT herself actually. We actually collaborated together and did a one off, exhibition of her art and my photography combined. And then she passed away of a brain tumor. But I knew her since she was 14 to then, and, you know, what an extraordinary woman she was and what an impact she made on the world.
And I've, since then granted 36 wishes and become a wish granter for Make-A-Wish all over the world and got involved with all kinds of organizations. As you mentioned, a charity called the Adeo Foundation in Haiti. We've helped build a school there and I got involved, pre the earthquake. And then of course post the earthquake. And I created two films down there. Went on the board of the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatrics AIDS Foundation and created a film called Generation Free, talking about trying to make a generation free of AIDS, pediatric AIDS. And of course, that's pretty much the case in the United States with a 95% decrease in cases in the past 20 years. But obviously not the same situation in sub Saharan Africa and other countries.
Christopher Lacy: Right.
Nigel Barker: So, I'm on the board of Jumpstart, an early literacy organization, bringing early literacy and education to preschoolers all around the country. And, obviously there are so many great organizations out there. Make-A-Wish, or Girl Up. Again, another one that was brought on by my daughter being born and wanting to stand up for gender equality, because I wanted my daughter to be involved and to have a world that was fair and just for her. And, my mission has been since then that everyone I work with, I try and encourage to realize the importance of philanthropy and giving back and that when people buy anything or purchase anything, that they look at the company and the businesses that they're buying from and find out what their message is and whether they really believe it and where are they making their clothes? And are they making them in sweat shops; and track where your food comes from. And, not just is it organic, but how do they treat the animals? And how do they to kill the animal? What's going on? And I've obviously worked for the Humane Society. And I created a film called a Sealed Fate for them, and traveled to the Arctic and filmed the, the birth of the seals and throughout their entire lifecycle until the actual hunts. So, I was on the ice for almost two and a half weeks with an entire crew.
You know, but it also goes into fashion to where I've worked with the CFDA, with fFashion Target, Breast Cancer; joined forces with Nine West and we created the most successful advertising campaign in the Jones Group's history. with over a billion views of the advertising campaign in just three weeks, for an incredible boot that we produced with Nine West, which was their most expensive SKU they'd ever produced and then became their best seller. Where we photographed models like Carolyn Murphy, Coco Rocha, Jessica White, Chrissy Tiegen. And it was models marching for a cause during fashion week and everything else. And I love collaborations like that, where you can bring these worlds together; it's a win-win for everyone.
And that's really sort of become a large part of my mission these days.
Christopher Lacy: I appreciate you bringing up how fashion has played a role into your philanthropy, because in hearing everything you said, the running theme was you had personal connectivity. You saw the people it affected. You were there, and it forced you to do more. And it forced you to open your eyes more. And in the fashion industry, we support a lot of things, UNICEF, like you said, there are fashion companies that have supported Girl Up. And I think sometimes it can come across to the consumers that are they only doing this for revenue generating benefits. Right? My question to you is, you've been in this space doing this with fashion companies, without fashion companies on your own. What does meaningful connected look like to you? If you're looking at a retailer, what do you see when you go, you know what, they're being authentic. They're being honest about what it is they want to do. And you look at another one and you can go that's BS?
Nigel Barker: Yeah. Well, there's, there's a lot of BS. I mean, we all know it's, you know, it's pride month right now. How many people have rainbows on their products, on their stores and everything else? But are they really supportive of the gay community? I know. Is this just a, something that's cool for the month? What are they doing? are they giving to the right organizations? Do they actually care? Who are they employing? Are they fair? And same goes for, you know, breast cancer awareness. How many people put a pink ribbon on everything? That's not to say, look, it's great that people are being recognized, or that these organizations are having a moment, having a month. And I, and I'm not saying that one shouldn't support these organizations during those months. I think obviously that's a good thing. I mean, there was awareness and what have you.
What bothers me is not all of these organizations are actually physically giving back at that time or, you know, it's really just because it's in fashion. As in its, it's en vogue that moment. It's what we're doing this month. And they don’t, not necessarily, following up or really making it a part of their mission statement. And I really like organizations that they're not necessarily spread themselves so thinly that they, they understand what they're about and what matters to them, or what matters to the founder or what matters to their employees. And, they, they really go for it.
I've worked for a company called Art Van, for example, a furniture company in the Midwest. And I produced my own furniture line called the NB1 and NB2 collections.
Christopher Lacy: Which by the way, I like a lot.
Nigel Barker: Thank you very much. I'm actually sitting in one of my chairs right now. You had a look in my room when you, when we first went on this call, this podcast. And in the room is all the stuff you can see in here is all from my collection, which is one of those fun things about when you do get to design your own things. When you design your own clothes, how much fun is it to put on something that you made?
It's very nice also, you can rather sit in your own chair. just, just for, just because it is. It's sort of one of those fun things in life. But my point here is, is that this is an organization that started by the man himself, Art van Ellslander, who really cared about his community. And, you know, the, these stores are in all these communities throughout the Midwest. And people, when they buy a table, when they buy a bed; furniture is very personal. It's in your house. It's your bed is something you sleep in every night. A dining room table is something that you eat every day, three times a day oftentimes. For many households, it's more than just the dining room table. It's a table where people are doing their homework. So, my point being that he understood that what he was making was not just a thing, that it was oftentimes a part of the family. And that furniture can be heirlooms. And that people care about their favorite chair. And they get upset when someone else sits in it, cause it's their chair. You know, even if it's the cat who sits in the chair!
And so he ran this amazing charity, which raised millions of dollars every year for all the local charities. And there was a big competition to get the local charities to think of things outside the box, to sort of almost vie for as much money as they could. And they all raise money, every one of them, but one of them got the million-dollar check and it was just this great competition between all of local organizations. But it was then voted on by the people. And, you see, that sort of thing for me, where he was inspiring people at large to, to think outside the box and to raise money. And they raised literally hundreds of millions of dollars over the years for these different local charities in Michigan, and what have you. You know, so things like that for me are very, just very truthful and organic and people are, you know, it's not necessarily the United Nations, which by the way, I'm an ambassador for the United Nations, but you don't have to be so grand. It doesn't have to be so big. And perhaps sometimes people switch off when they hear that things like UNICEF, because although, because they sort of think, well, UNICEF is going to be fine, isn't it? Because so big. Everyone supports UNICEF, it's a massive deal. Everyone's a part of UNICEF. They don't need my 10 bucks.
I encourage everyone to look at things that matter to them, issues that matter to them, illnesses that someone in your family has suffered, or someone you know. Something that bothers you, something that you think might happen, something that you think you might get, because you've got a genetic marker for Alzheimer's. I don't know what it could be, but what are you going to do to make a difference? This is your life. This is your world. It's up to us to grab that world and change it and shape it and do as much as we can to make a difference in it. I look for organizations that really care that are making a difference, that aren't taking advantage of our world.
And so that one can shop, as much as possible, guilt-free, eat guilt-free and sleep well at night and stand up straight when you walk.
Christopher Lacy: I say this often to startups that I'm working with, which is: the product is the product. And the last thing we really all need is more product technically. Right?
But what is it that means something to you?
And I have talked to so many startups that when I asked them, so what are your core values or what is your mission statement? And they're like, oh, we don't really know yet, but you know, and they'll say to me, they're like, but we know we're innovation and we're sustainability.
And, and I'm like, you cannot do this unless you really decide what are the values that you want to uphold as an organization? Why are you doing any of this? and who do you want to support in doing it? Cause if it's just about product, we all kind of don't care anymore. I think the consumer, and to something you said earlier, the consumer knows if it's BS, if it's just a rainbow, or the pink ribbon. What is it that you're all about? And how do you support this community and build one?
Nigel Barker: Absolutely. No, a hundred percent. I mean, you know, are you including people in your advertising campaigns? Are you you're supporting the community on multiple levels? And it's gotta be deeper than simply just saying like, oh, by the way, we're going to give a percentage of the profits this month to this organization. And then, you know, if it's not en vogue or popular next year, we'll be doing something else. And it's just sort of in and out. And again, you can't take away from the fact that every penny made for these organizations helps, but from an authenticity standpoint, I think it's, it's very, very shallow and that sort of, that that's the situation.
And, you know, I feel that you have to get a bit deeper and you, these days, they have so much information at our fingertips that it's not difficult to actually do the research and to see who resonates with you. And I think that in many respects, social media, has been a large player in this. Is that it's given people, the ability from all over the world everywhere to sort of dig a little deeper and look into the company. Some companies just don't get it. They just don't know how to do it. And it's funny, even these really big, behemoth companies that have a lot of financial power to really hire the right people, fail so terribly when it comes to actually communicating one-on-one, or being personable through social media. And they they can't help themselves, but being incredibly corporate, in their communications. You can see how, and why they suffer, and why these other little companies and things are popping up, because people are realizing that they have an option. They have a choice. And half the time they're buying things off Amazon anyway, so it really doesn't matter where the company is. You know, you buy something and then all of a sudden, it's being delivered from China, or it's being delivered from Australia, or it's come from England and its sort of like, Whoa, wait a second. Oh, I didn't realize. I just liked it and I wanted to find it and buy it. So, I think that is creating a large change in the world that we live in right now. And it's a positive thing for me. That's a positive difference. And I'm constantly telling people: shop with knowledge, knowledge is power. And, if we really want to make a difference, that's what one of the ways to do it. It's sort of like asking someone to get out there and vote. If you don't vote, then you don't really deserve to be able to jump around and say, yes, you know, you want this, you want that. And it's, you're not, it's not fair that it's not happening. If you vote, then of course you do. Likewise, you're shopping power is, is very powerful.
Christopher Lacy: Well, I want to ask you, ‘cause you brought up social media, and just kind of turn it a little bit, because you are the creative voice quite often for many brands. You're creating a story for them through your visual artistry, and also providing your consulting knowledge to many of them.
And so here we are with social media, and do you have the rise that happened of the influencer model, the blogger, the influencer style photographer. But then you also have this professionally trained photographer and model that's also needing to tell the brand story. How do brands approach their marketing with this? Because are they at odds when you were trying to deal with this and you, you look at it and you're like, what they just put out on social media is ridiculous and they should have probably done something more professionally. What are your thoughts on, on these things?
Nigel Barker: Well, I think that, the proof is in the pudding really. And when it comes to professional photography versus perhaps say an influencer, taking a sort of a, I dunno, a selfie or some sort of handheld phone camera shot of something, they're for different purposes. So, people look at social media for that kind of authenticity realness, behind the scenes, you know, it can be very scrappy. And that's what exactly what they want. it's almost like the truth. And if you like, even in the fashion industry with models, when you book a model, you know, you can oftentimes you're sent their portfolio. Right? And it's full of these perfectly beautiful pictures that are produced and retouched and look amazing.
And then what you, what we always ask for is, now may I see her Polaroids please? And that normally requires the model to go into the agency or take a Polaroid from wherever she is, or he is, of themselves at that very moment; and a Polaroid being pretty blunt. You can't re retouch it because it's not a digital image, kind of thing. So, then you get the honest truth. And that's what we kind of go on. And then, then we believe cause then mean like, okay, this is actually what I'm getting. And you either like it or you don't like it, and then you booked the person.
And that's exactly what sort of social media is. It's sort of the truth. Not always, of course, because one, can re touch the pictures there too, and we can do whatever you like, but there's a lot of it. And I think the accounts that work best and the influencers who do best are the ones who just are unabashedly , unashamed to just be themselves and say it as they say it and brutally honest and, that work for some brands and it doesn't work for all. But, there is also a place for professional photography say on the brand's website or if it's a billboard, or if it's going to be in a magazine, or it's going to be in some place where you want to get a picture across and an image across very quickly. Social media is more of a, sort of, almost like a storytelling, in a way in multiple pictures or in a video and someone telling you something. And it's, it's like a piece of advice that someone saying, Oh, I tried this and then, I liked it, or I didn't like it, or I liked it under these conditions, and I didn't.
But an ad is really just the fantasy. It's not advice. It's just saying, look at this beautiful moment. This could potentially be you. This is a dream, you know, so fashion photographers have been known over the years, my job is normally to create that dream.
But certainly, and you you're right. Now, I am actually responsible for multiple social media accounts for different companies that I work with and work for. We do a combination and I, I often lament personally, how I'll post a picture, even on my own social media of a magazine cover, or a story that I've shot that one really cares about or thinks is really great, or you know, that it's one of your better pictures or something. And then, post the "behind the scenes" of you making the picture, shooting the shot and you know, even having a sandwich on the set of...
Christopher Lacy: Right.
Nigel Barker: And that is the shot that everyone loves, talks about, asks you questions. Ooh, what's happening here? What are you doing there? What are you eating in your sandwich? Oh, that's a funny a... like your shoes. It's a whole thing. And you're like, okay. So, you know, that just got 10 times a bigger response. But that's what it is. So, I think you just have to be aware of the medium and how to use it. And there are, like I said, these different mediums are for different purposes.
Christopher Lacy: I think that's great that you mentioned that eating the sandwich on the set, because when we look through the pages of a magazine and we're engaging with any brand, there is this level of desirability. I mean, your job as part of the creative team is to make what is being done onset desirable to the consumer.
But at the same time, we've shifted our mindset in consumer behavior so much that we want real and authentic. So, now you're always in a space of like, how do we play with this and make it whimsical and not so serious. Right?
Nigel Barker: No. Absolutely. Absolutely. you know, and I don't think it's... It depends on what the brand is. It depends on what's actually going on, but you'll see. I mean, I'm approached by brands all the time and certainly in the beauty space who will say to me, you know, we've got this body cream, or we've got this range of shampoos and we're quite sophisticated and dah, dah, dah. And this is how we see ourselves and we like this sort of black and white imagery and what have you. And you know, they talk in this sort of grand terms and, and I'm like, well, you know, who you marketing to? Question is, is who is your audience? And that's a very crucial part of who you're speaking to. And, which age range are they in? And, even someone like, for example, like my daughter, she's 11 years old and obviously she's not really got much purchasing power directly. But she is an audience. She, for example, doesn't pay any attention to Instagram or really any other...she's into Tik Tok and Snapchat. And that's a very specific platform. Yet someone like my mother, for example, who is in her seventies is all over Facebook; she has a certain spending power and certain things that she's into.
My wife is really solely on Instagram, you know, and I love Twitter and things like that. So there are so many different avenues in which to market and how to market, and get to people. And on top of that, you know, someone like my wife likes to buy magazines, right? When we travel, like she goes to the magazine store in the airport and she buys her magazines. She still likes to do that. But you know, there are certain people and certain demographics, 40 plus, if you like, who will go and buy magazines .And then there are coffee table books that people still like to buy, no matter what age they are, because they look good and there's a sort of, almost like these larger pieces that you can put on the table, where if your advertisers are thinking in a certain way, they I've been asked by fashion designers and furniture designers; we need to help them put together coffee table books, because they're realizing now that's a way to get this sort of big brand message across in a book that looks very organic. It's just a beautiful piece of art that someone may want to flick through, but actually it's really a bit of an advertising book.
Christopher Lacy: This is actually kind of two questions. I do want to know what your creative process is whenever someone approaches you and they're like, we're hiring you for this project. You know, what is this process for you to figure out what it should look like? But then my other question to you is, our students, many of them are planning to start their business. What should their creative process look like when deciding how they should craft their Instagram look? What questions and process should they be going through, and checklist, to make sure that they're putting out that really cool, desirable brand image.
Nigel Barker: It's funny that there's a lot of different angles here that one can take. And certainly, and if I don't answer, remind me of the bits.
Christopher Lacy: No, no, no. It's okay. It's a big question.
Nigel Barker: There's lots of pieces to it. So, talking social media, there are people who, we've all seen this, where if you go to their account, It's beautifully curated. And you look at the whole account and you see what they've sort of done if you like, where every third picture is black and white, and every other picture is blue. And when you look at the whole account, it actually has this beautiful color palette, of all the pictures laid out. And you're like, huh, so beautiful. It's so well presented. It's very chic. It almost looks like storefront. And one may think, well, that's a great idea. I should do that. How great that looks. However, and this is just a fact, 99% of people do not visit the account page again, after they follow someone. So, only 1% of people will ever look again to see what is going on on your account page. That's direct from Instagram.
Christopher Lacy: Right.
Nigel Barker: Who I work with quite closely. So, you realize that the only reason why that has any impact whatsoever, that you've done that amazing curation, is potentially only when people go to your page that very first time to see if they want to follow you.
And perhaps maybe then that page, the way you've curated it, might make them. So, really doing it for yourself. And actually, what draws people's attention and what makes people come back. And actually, most people don't even go to an account to follow it. They just follow it directly from that one picture that they liked. And that's provoked them enough to go, okay, this is something interesting, I'll see what else this person does. It's sort of, realizing that what social media can do and what we found to be very successful, and a lot of the brands that I work with, and for example, when I say diversity, I mentioned, I worked for the Art Van furniture company, which is a multibillion dollar business. And people like Marriott, who I've worked on their Instagram accounts as well for AC Hotels. We all know how big Marriott is, with Sony International, and companies like that Audarama and Canon Films. But also, to small startups. Okay. for example, the Dog Pound, which is a gym that I actually part own.
Christopher Lacy: Do you really?
Nigel Barker: Yeah, I'm one of the founders of the Dog Pound.
Christopher Lacy: I don't know why I didn't know that.
Nigel Barker: So, well so, all of you out there, you probably don't--you may, you may or may not have heard of the Dog Pound. But if you have heard of it, it's probably because of social media. Because I was CMO of Dog Pound for the first three years. And I'm one of the founders of the Dog Pound. It's a gym that we created, a bunch of us guys together, who used to work out together. And we brought our dogs to the gym; tie them up in the gym whilst we worked out. And so we nicknamed it, the Dog Pound and gave ourselves all nicknames. And then we decided to build our own gym, and what have you. And I, as I mentioned, we created the social media account and we started out at zero. Right? But much of it was to do with who else we had at the gym and the space that we created, because it was such a cool looking gym. Because the actual design of it was really fun and graphic and jet black and, you know, really sexy. Anyone who went there, wanted to take pictures. It was very Instagram-worthy type of location and place. But we made that, it wasn't, it didn't look like that before we got there. We completely created that whole look. But then all the people that came, loved it so much that they would take pictures. And it was less about how many people we followed or followed us rather. It was the power of all the people who were coming to the gym, who were then posting about us. And our own followers had a combined following of something like 10 billion people. Which is ridiculous, just massive, massive following. You know, when we had, started at zero, we took us to to first year was about, we've got about 50,000 followers, which was pretty good. And then we went up to 300,000 followers plus, after two and a half years. I mean, it just went exponential. And our video content was really very powerful. But a lot of it was because of the people who were coming to our gym and they were then posting it, reposting the pictures that we were posting.
So oftentimes, brands that were coming to us realized that, okay, we had a few hundred thousand followers, which was good. But what was even better was the fact that the amplification of all the other people that were reposting, what we were posting, that gave them a massive viewership, to a point where Instagram themselves even called us up and said, my goodness, what are you doing? You've got like a 300% higher view rate than average on your videos than other people who have got great content as well. Like what, what's the secret? So, and again, much of that had to do with the fact that we had a lot of models and celebrities and people like that at the gym who were in our videos; and people love to see people working out. And that boils back down to, again, the behind the scenes and the realness of what people actually do in their life, you know? So, people love to see anyone kind of getting behind the scenes.
I mentioned this before, I think, but reality television, which is obviously where I started, was a precursor to social media in many respects, in my opinion. And the reason why it was so successful and popular, shows like America's Next Top Model, was not necessarily because of the fashion part of it, but because of the behind-the-scenes of what designer's did. And people love Project Runway for similar ways, to see people actually creating the garments. To people seeing how they actually do the photo shoots and how the photographers talk to the models and how do the designers pick the models. And whatever it might be. That part of it was so important. So, that's really where social media plays the largest role. It's helping people to understand what your heartbeat is. It's not about showing people your finished design. We have a website for that. And you can have other things for that. And you can put it on your social media. Fine. That's fine. You can do that. But it's not really what it's for. It's not there as a portfolio. It's there as your diary.
Christopher Lacy: That's amazing to say, to everyone to get is that it really is a diary. It is the process by which everything is happening. I think the overarching message of what you just said is you all used Instagram to create a community. And whether you intentionally did it or not, it ended up happening, and you had it community of people and that's what mattered.
So, it wasn't always about the end result. It was about a community of people who happen to share the same passions you all did. And that's something that I always want to try to get across to many of the startups I talk to, which is, what is your community? What's your tribe? And once you kind of discover that tribe, it's much easier to then start creating your Instagrams and everything that comes after that.
Nigel Barker: Correct.
Christopher Lacy: So, you recently started a podcast?
Nigel Barker: Yes, I did. I started it with Univision, the Spanish-speaking channel. And I did 24 episodes. And recently, at the beginning of this year, I signed resigned with Embassy Row and it's called Shaken and Stirred. And it's really a total labor of love which has become something else, as did the Dog Pound. The Dog Pound was me working-out with my friends and because I was passionate about it--and this is a concept for everyone out there -- pick things that you actually care about. Right? We've talked about this, really, it's the theme of this entire conversation, isn't it? But passion, things that you care about, things that actually interest you, not just things that you've been trained in, you know, or something that you have a degree in or whatever. Of course, you hope, let's hope you're passionate about that. And most people in fashion certainly are, because it's a vocational type of job. But so often it's not for people, whatever they're doing out there in the world is not vocational. But I have discovered that all the things that have been the most successful for me, like creating a gym. I mean, here's a photographer, right, who creates a gym, for goodness sakes. That becomes one of the most successful gyms in New York City. And now we have an LA location as well, and has a very powerful Instagram account, that people have heard of all over the world. I go into a gym anywhere in the world wearing a Dog Pound t-shirt, and people are like, "Oh my God, the Dog Pound." You know? Um and it was just because I enjoyed working out. And that enjoyment that people could see how thrilled we really were, is contagious. And people love it. So, they get in on it and want to be a part of it. Want to be a part of that community.
And likewise, truth be told, I enjoy like many of us, a good cocktail. And you know, and I've always been fascinated with alcohol in general, to be honest with you. When I used to live in Europe, I would go to the verrier and go to Oktoberfest and try all the beers.
I loved living in France and going to the South of France and visiting the vineyards. And the same in Italy, and also in Spain, and going to visit where they made the Sherry and Andalucía and learning about all the different barrels and the whole process and the creativity. I mean, for me, it's being creative in anything. And wine making is being creative. And so is making alcohol. But all the stories, the narratives behind all these amazing brands that we've heard of, that have been around for hundreds of years sometimes. If you go to Scotland in the Highlands and how they make these whiskeys. And you know how they make the gins and, whatever it might be.
Even the making of a cocktail, the process, the colors, the look, the, feel, the why we want to drink it. All of that sort of stuff I find fascinating. And you know, I have a great friend who I mentioned already, called Tom Astor, who I went to high school with. I've known him since I was 14. He's godfather to my son and I'm godfather to his daughter. And we've always tried to do things to help bring us together as friends to make sure that we always had an excuse to see each other, whether it was making each other godparents to our kids. But then late last year we were sitting down together, having a great old chin wag over a cocktail at the table. And he was going back to England. And I said to him, goodness, I'm going to miss you. And he said, I know, me too you. Well, we should do something to make sure that we can do this more often, versus just once or twice a year. And we also do family vacations together. And I sort of said, well, this fun conversation, we're always laughing our heads off. When we tend to think of some, something that's happening in politics, current affairs; it can be anything, and we would rip into it as old school friends would do. And we would have, you know, no holds barred, everything nothing's taboo. Everything's, nothing's-off-the-table kind of conversations.
And I'm like, well, why don't we do a podcast? And do this. We can talk. We can have an excuse to talk and we'll do it over a cocktail. And we'll shake the conversation up. We'll stir the conversation up. And we'll enjoy having an experiment on cocktails. And so literally Shaken and Stirred was born, with a little play on the old James Bond theme, because we both enjoy a good martini, but not shaken, not stirred, which is the James Bond gin. But shaken andstirred. And sometimes Tom's the shaker, sometimes I'm the stirrer. And sometimes it's the other way ‘round. But we've done many different new episodes. We just launched again. Then of course, now we're doing it in this COVID situation; but it's really become rather special and rather magical. And we've got people calling us now saying we'd love to be on your show. So, that's when you know, you've done something good, is when people start to call you. And so that, that for us, it was a real really, really rather nice. And again, it's just simply good time. And it's available pretty much everywhere, you know, where you can get podcasts from Spotify to Apple Podcasts, to Google Play and everything else. But 'em, thank you for bringing it up.
Christopher Lacy: Absolutely. I'm going to take a listen. I'm actually going to send you, so I used to be a bartender and a bar manager years ago, but I'm going to send you a couple of cocktails via email that I want you to try out and tell me what you think.
Nigel Barker: Brilliant.
Christopher Lacy: I think you'll like them.
Nigel, I could probably chat with you all day, but you've got stuff to do. And so do I. So, can you tell our listeners, how can they stay up to date with what's going on in your world?
Nigel Barker: Oh, absolutely. Well, certainly, you know, if you, if you're an Instagram person, you can find me @NigelBarker. Nice and simple.
Same on Twitter, Nigel Barker. Facebook, Nigel Barker Official. And then if you want to look at my work and review my films and current projects in full, then my website, which is www.nigelbarker.tv. So, it's nice and simple really?
Christopher Lacy: There we go!
Nigel, I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for talking to me and to our listeners. Really appreciate it.
Nigel Barker: My pleasure, Christopher, thank you so much. All the best and good luck to everybody out there.
Christopher Lacy: Thank you.
Joshua Williams: Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, our guests, our students and fellow faculty at Parsons School of Design, especially in such an extraordinary and unprecedented time. Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell.
Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.
